Disco Book Club: “Fever: The Complete History of Saturday Night Fever” by Margo Donohue
Michelle Newman 0:00
Welcome to the pop culture Preservation Society, the podcast for people born in the big wheel generation, whose idea of an insult involved inviting people to insert rubber hoses into their noses. Sure up your nose with a rubber hose. Why wouldn't you
Carolyn Cochrane 0:16
we believe our Gen X childhoods gave us unforgettable songs, stories, characters and images, and if we don't talk about them, they'll disappear, like Marshall will and Holly on a routine expedition.
Kristin Nilsen 0:29
And today we're kicking off season 17 with a book club tailor made for disco loving Gen Xers. We're celebrating the release of the book fever, a complete history of Saturday Night Fever. I'm Carolyn, I'm Kristen,
Michelle Newman 0:43
and I'm Michelle, and we are your pop culture preservationists.
Kristin Nilsen 0:47
Welcome to disco book club, the only book club that we know of that has disco as its guiding principle. Today's book club pick is made to order for the Gen X children of the pop culture Preservation Society simply called fever, a complete history of Saturday Night Fever, by Margot Donahue, we are going to be frank with you right now today, we were looking forward to sitting here with Margot, the author of fever, her publicist reached out to us several months ago and basically said you would love Margot. You are going to be best friends, and it looked like a match made in heaven. Not just the subject matter, but Margot was also a pop culture podcaster. She was like a sister from another mister. We were gonna get podcast married. We were so excited to meet her, but a few weeks before our interview date, I wanted a little more info about Margot so I could be prepared. I didn't want to sound like I didn't know who she was. And deep into that search, it was not the first thing that popped up. Deep into the search, I found something that stopped my heart for a minute. I came upon a community of people coming together and mourning after reading an announcement of Margot Donahue sudden death, and I thought, This can't be real. And truthfully, for about 24 hours, we were convinced that this was a cruel and inappropriate
Michelle Newman 2:12
hoax, because we couldn't find anything. We couldn't
Carolyn Cochrane 2:15
find it was it was crazy weird. I like how
Michelle Newman 2:19
you said and it stopped my heart, because that's how I felt too, like, wait, and it's like I didn't know her. But the fact that we had this connection of her coming on the podcast and everything, it made me feel like we did, we didn't know her. Yes, I felt, I felt like, like, no, no, because there would be something out there. So no, this isn't right, and
Kristin Nilsen 2:43
I had just read her book. So I really did, as I read her book, I was getting to know her, and I did feel like I knew her and I loved her. And so even though we had never spoken, this really was like a parasocial relationship, like we knew this woman. So Carolyn, very carefully. I mean, we had to have a lot of discussions about, how do we approach approach this very unusual situation that we're in. So Carolyn very carefully, reached out to Margot's publicist, who confirmed that, yes, sadly, Margot Donohue had died very unexpectedly just days before, less than a month before her new book was to be released. And like I said, I was just it was such a crushing blow, because I had just gotten to know her by reading her
Michelle Newman 3:30
book. Like just reading her book, you get a sense of her voice, if that makes sense, like you're talking with her, and it really is, and they had just recorded a podcast episode about the book. Yeah. I mean, I feel like that had to have been days, days or moments like, and let's not forget, she had two other podcasts that are very popular, that people are like devastated. They feel like they know her, much like our listeners feel like they know us.
Kristin Nilsen 3:58
She had a legion of fans, and that's what we had stumbled upon were these fans talking about how much they were going to miss her. And we don't have any information about what happened. Nobody does. We are all in the dark, and we are in shock, and we are so sad. So in tribute to her and to give her and her book The recognition that they deserve, I'm going to read from her obituary, just so we can all kind of celebrate her together. Yeah, author, podcast producer and host, Margo Donohue, a long time, Brooklyn resident has passed away unexpectedly at the age of 58 Margot lived in Park Slope, Brooklyn for nearly three decades, where she built a close knit circle of friends who became her chosen family, a passionate music lover, pop culture trivia expert and writer. Margot CO produced the book versus movie podcast for 11 years, and the Dorking out and what a creep podcast for eight years. That's three podcast people for the beginning, counting. She was also a contributing writer to numerous outlets in the health and. Wellness arena and a featured guest on countless culture podcasts. This work led to the publication of Margot's first book, filmed in Brooklyn, which chronicles the rich and long cinematic history of her beloved Brooklyn. Her second book, fever, the complete history of Saturday Night Fever, will be released on August 26 2025 when she passed, she had already begun work on her next book, a history of the movie. Carrie Margot had a sharp wit, a generous heart and an encyclopedic knowledge of movies and television, particularly Monty Python, which shaped her wonderfully quirky sense of humor. She could quote spinal tap and Pride and Prejudice with equal ease, often in the same conversation. She also dreamed of one day retiring with her closest friends and recreating the Golden Girls lifestyle, complete with sarcasm, snacks and found family. Margot was deeply connected to those around her, both people and pets. When she made a friend, she kept them often for decades, her loyalty ran deep and her relationships were rich with humor, honesty and care, so you can see what a loss this is, yes.
Michelle Newman 6:07
So obviously we were stunned to discover her death was, in fact, true, and we were just so sad. And after a beat, obviously we're like, well, we need to scrap that episode on fever. But then very quickly, we knew that no now more than ever, we needed to celebrate Margot's book, this passion project of hers, because by doing this, this, by having this conversation we're about to have, it will keep a huge part of Margot alive. This book lives on through the people who read and discuss it, and to let it die along with her would be a huge disservice to the life that she put into it.
Kristin Nilsen 6:46
Yeah, like you said, this was a this is a passion project. This was personal for her. This is not just her job, yeah.
Michelle Newman 6:52
I mean, we so now it's up to people like us to keep this going, to keep this book right.
Carolyn Cochrane 6:57
In a way, I feel like she wrote it for us, for those people who grew up and had this really pop culture defining experience with Saturday Night Fever, and she has in the book a lot of the same questions that I have, that she kind of answers for us. This book really was written for us, and what better way to honor her than to read it and discuss it and really be the beneficiaries of this gift that I think she was really giving a generation. So we are excited to share her work with you, because really, we are the most perfect audience for this book.
Kristin Nilsen 7:36
We really are, I mean, extremely. So it's no wonder that her publicist reached out to her, and she's right, we were gonna be the best of friends. So this is for you, Margot, to introduce you to the book I'm going to read to you word for word the introduction, because it's brilliant, and it just tells you everything that you need to know about this book that is like Carolyn said, it's written for us, and it says whether you're a brother or whether you're a mother, it's impossible to resist the throbbing disco beats and lasting cultural impact of Saturday Night Fever, released in December 1977 this low budget disco movie was the surprise gift that kept on giving. It made millions at the box office, earned an Oscar nomination for TV actor turned movie star John Travolta catapulted the Bee Gees music career into the stratosphere with a record breaking, Grammy winning soundtrack album, and ignited a Disco Inferno that burns to this day from Travolta's iconic white polyester suit and legendary dance moves to the flashing lights and illuminated floor of the 2001 Odyssey disco In Brooklyn. Saturday Night Fever captured the era like no other film and launched a phenomenon that changed the world forever. And you guys, we were there for it. I'm just so happy that we were there for it.
Michelle Newman 8:53
I know well, the editor in chief of the publisher of the book says that in this book, Margot has expertly captured the making of this remarkably groundbreaking movie, along with the soundtrack, the style, the dances and the hair, which continues to resonate today across popular culture. And apparently this is this Margot's book, fever is the first complete history of Saturday Night Fever, which is pretty astounding. It is 50, 5050, years, almost 50 years later. Yeah. And what I loved about this book is that it's not only a deep dive into the making of the movie. And you guys know I love a good behind the scenes. You know, I love all those factoids and gossip, but this book includes interviews with actors, dancers and crew from the movie, 62 of them. She has, she has, like them all listed. And it also explores the huge impact of the movie. And as many of you listening know, back in early 2022 the pop culture Preservation Society devoted two episodes to Saturday Night Fever. Here, one for the movie and another for the soundtrack. And I just re listened to Episode 52 aptly titled Saturday night feeder part one.
Kristin Nilsen 10:12
You guys were so clever. I know our
Michelle Newman 10:14
creativity was skinny. And other than some sound issues, and that being the cringy season, we tried to incorporate an opening casual, off the cuff, host chat. It's not, I can't even you guys hate we spent five years throwing shit to the wall to see what sticks. And thank God. Host chat did not. It didn't last. HOST Job didn't last, but our discussion in Episode 52 especially the last half hour, I think is really insightful and thought provoking. That was one of our first forays into movies, like a movie discussion from our past that had a troubling plot and cringy scenes that we basically had a PhD level discussion about and I'm proud of it, even when I listen to that, I'm proud of the questions we posed and I'm proud of the thoughts that we had. Well, Margot's book fever, the complete history of Saturday Night Fever, takes us even deeper into the making of the movie, including some of the more troubling scenes. Think Annette in the back seat of the car, but because she talks to the players, in this case, for that scene, Donna Pascal, Paul pape, who played Double J, and Joseph Calley, who played Joe, and even true Voltas body double
Kristin Nilsen 11:35
everybody
Michelle Newman 11:36
and and all a lot of other Like dancers and singers and even John Benham, the director, we get a first person account of not just what was happening during filming, but how many of these uncomfortable scenes affected their mindset during the entire shooting process, which actually answers a lot of the questions we posed in our own episode.
Kristin Nilsen 11:58
Yeah. I mean there, because there, when we first got this book, we our first reaction was, well, we've already done an episode on Saturday Night Fever, so this would be redundant, but what we found is that the that we had, we came to that episode with so many questions that we couldn't find the answers to, right? We didn't realize we were going to have a PhD level discussion. We thought we were going to be talking about a fun dance movie, and that was not what happened. And so we left there with with some lingering, some lingering questions, and Margo answered them for us, listening to that, listening to that episode from so long ago, when we were just learning how, like she, Michelle referenced the sound issues. The sound is horrible. We were still learning all the technical aspects of hosting a podcast, but you'll also hear us sort of haltingly discuss this in the beginning, because we were unprepared for the movie. We had seen it when we were children, and we had an idea in our heads of what it was, and it was not that. And so coming to it with our adult, our adult eyes and ears kind of threw us. And so we had to find our bearings. And an hour and a half was not enough time for us to come to any sort of resolution on what the movie meant to us or what it meant to the world. And so I think this, this book, was almost a healing experience for me. There's one chapter in particular we'll talk about it later. That is just about, what is this movie about? What's about? It's not a dance movie, and that's why we were struggling in the beginning to figure out what we were talking about. And then, like Michelle said, the last half hour, we are really coming together and having such a deep conversation, because we're realizing it was, it was far, it was far deeper than we thought
Carolyn Cochrane 13:47
it was. Well, yeah, and I really listening back, was just really struck by my real time revelations when we were talking about Annette, and just how I could relate to her and kind of the position that she felt she was in to get the guy that she liked,
Kristin Nilsen 14:04
and that was going to sacrifice anything she was going to debase herself in order to get the
Carolyn Cochrane 14:08
guy right. And the book, and we'll come to talk about this in a little while, just kind of validated some of the things that I was saying. I felt kind of a balm as I was reading Donna Pascal's take on this whole character and some of the scenes, just that whole quandary of the good girl, bad girl dilemma, then you can't win for losing. Yeah, I do also want to say I feel like maybe because it was so in the real time, in real time and raw, that I was kind of harsh when I was making it sound like all the guys I went to high school with were jerks and mistreated girls. It certainly was not all of the all of the guys really I went to really nice guys. I felt bad, yeah, but at the same time, I have to say, while some guys weren't doing these things, nobody was calling this out as as wrong. Like this again, was this era that we just thought as whether the girls or you're a guy observing it, this is just the way of the world, and this is the way some guys are and and, yeah, so I that part of our old episode, and then coupling that with reading the book, I've got a whole new perspective on everybody involved, the annettes, the other men in the movie, and the boys in my life. And I appreciated getting to revisit that moment in the in the podcast.
Michelle Newman 15:34
And I think it's because that like Kristen, to your point where you said, in that last half hour, and I think I mentioned it earlier too. We kind of all locked in on, on, oh, like I know that from the beginning of our of episode 52 because it was the first time I had ever seen the R rated version. Right the week prior to us recording that in 2022 I was like, Absolutely not. I can't stand this movie. I don't understand why. I don't understand any of it. By the end of our conversation, I had done like a 180 I had been like, oh, oh yeah, I do see a lot of it. And so I think now what fever did for me reading Margot's book and Carolyn, it sounds like for you as well, for both of you, is that because we got to hear from the players, because we got to hear from the writer, because we got to hear from the director. We I felt really affirmed in where we all came to by the end of episode 52 I was like, huh, we were right. That was the purpose of this movie, but I certainly felt different at the beginning of that conversation. So I do feel like this. Yeah, I feel like the fever now. I feel like I've gotten affirmation from all the people that were involved that, yes, this is what you were supposed to be looking for. And yes, feeling the shock and the
Kristin Nilsen 16:51
disgust that was okay. Yes, you're so disgust,
Michelle Newman 16:56
you can feel both of these things together, and the relatability of it, which we'll talk about in a minute. I mean, the reason, like, what's the meaning of it? But it was like, all the people who were a part of it, officially were telling us, yes, it's all of it, guys, it's all of it.
Kristin Nilsen 17:10
It's it. And I think here's a quote from the book that really made me feel better about the tussle that we had about, is this a disgusting movie, or is this an important movie, because the answer is both. And this comes from Barry Miller. I can't remember who he played. Somebody help me? Barry Miller, well, one of the guys, one of John Travolta's friends. And he says what really made the movie a valuable piece of filmmaking was that it emphasized the emptiness of that lifestyle. It's a tremendously ugly movie. And if I had had somebody tell me that I wouldn't have had such, yeah,
Michelle Newman 17:45
conflict, right? Because I went into it thinking, well, this is, this is, like, one of the best movies of all time. I think I say in the episode, I had seen that opening scene a lot. I do think, in hindsight, I had seen a lot of it, never all at once, but bits and pieces. Pete, the PG, the Made for TV. I want to talk about in a minute how they all felt when they were like, We're going to also film a version for television. But, um, but I think if someone would have told me it's okay to not like this movie, or it's okay to not to be disgusted by parts, you know what I mean, I would have felt like, oh, I have permission. Instead, I was like, I'm supposed to be loving this
Kristin Nilsen 18:22
movie, yeah? And I hate him. I hate him, and I don't want any of these I hate him, or I hate
Michelle Newman 18:29
not as much him. I For me, it was always I hated the things coming out of his mouth, yeah. I hated who he who he was pretending to be. I hated some of his friends. I hated that kind of stuff, but I was supposed to,
Kristin Nilsen 18:43
oh no, yeah, we didn't know that.
Carolyn Cochrane 18:45
Well, I don't think that I was given permission to street even helped us with that. I feel like the whole marketing of the movie and the way that it was, especially when they realized it was getting some momentum, and they made the PG virgin version, they didn't harp or like, let us feel that it was going to be icky. I never, until I was an adult watching it, didn't ever feel that way about Saturday Night Fever. It was a feel good, yeah, get on the dance floor, kind of a movie. And to find out that that was not the intent originally, but yet, I feel like the powers that be manipulated that a little bit after it kind of took off in a way that I don't think anyone foresaw, and they kind of played into some parts of it that weren't really what it was meant to be in the beginning, we
Kristin Nilsen 19:34
got snookered a little bit. They wanted they wanted a wider audience. They wanted it to go to more theaters, and so Michelle will tell us about the PG version in a minute, but they filmed these two versions of the movie, so all of us children thought it was a joyful dance movie. And Margo, bless her heart, she goes right there, and there's a whole chapter called What's it all about Tony, and she says the things that that exemplify why we struggled. And I want to read. This begin, just the beginning of that chapter, so you can so you can hear what I'm talking about. Okay, it's called What's it all about? Tony. Saturday Night Fever is a movie often remembered as a light disco flick with John Travolta in the white suit and wall to wall Bee Gees music. The sanitized television version has been viewed so often that it can come as a surprise to people when they watch the R rated Director's Cut, Tony and the faces, which are his friends, are not good people, racist, sexist, homophobic, cruel barbarians who are filled with rage and self loathing. The women in the story are desperate for the men to appreciate them. Stephanie is the modern girl who is being used by a man from her workplace and twice her age so he will not have to pay a large alimony to his ex. We hear racial and homophobic slurs, witness awful sexual encounters, watch Tony scream at his mother for being a loser, and see a main character fall to his death because he cannot imagine marrying someone he impregnated. The film is downright ugly at times, and yet it is so relatable,
Michelle Newman 20:59
yes, well, and I think we kind of came to that in our episode 52 Another thing I'm just wondering, listening to you guys over the past couple minutes, you know, we talk about Gene Siskel. This was his favorite movie forever of all time or whatever. And I think I start by like, I can't even imagine who would say that. Because I feel like, as adults, you get that it's relatable because you've lived through experiences, right? But as children, I don't think you're getting that. You're not getting that this is relatable unless maybe you've lived through some of it. And I've learned now as an adult, instead of going like, I hate that character, I hate that I say, God, so and so is such a tremendous actor, because they're making me hate them so much, either because of what they're doing or the way they're talking or how they're treating women or men or whatever. And so now that's sort of the lens I can see Saturday Night Fever through. Like I just said earlier, we were supposed to not like them. So now it's like, God, you guys all did a really good job. Yeah?
Kristin Nilsen 22:06
And that's where John and that's where John Travolta ends up getting an Oscar nomination. Yeah? Because he was not, if you recall, he was Barbarino. He was not an Oscar winning actor. And so Margo opens the book by discussing how John Travolta, this 22 year old kid, like, what is the transformation of this person from a sweat hog? Essentially, we've discussed John Travolta extensively in both our Saturday Night Fever episodes and also in our Urban Cowboy episode. But what Margo and Greece? Oh, my God yes. But what Margo was able to show me was how in this moment, John Travolta was transforming from a sweat hog into, according to Margo, these are her words, into a lean, mean dancing machine, slash movie star, and how so many of the people in the industry did not see that coming. They underestimated his growing star power. They just thought he was Barbarino from this dumb little sitcom.
Michelle Newman 23:06
But that speaks to really his talent, because everyone is seeing him as this doofus Barbarino. He wasn't at age, you know, 1817, he wasn't Barbarino. So he's really talented to be able because he was, like, this really sweet guy. He he in high school, you know, he was an outcast because all his friends were listening to rock music, and he just wanted to listen to, like, Pirates of Penzance. He just wanted to be a musical theater boy. I was really shocked to hear, though, in fever, that John Travolta was considered chubby pre Saturday Night Fever. Yes, I actually had to go back yesterday and watch some welcome back Cotter, specifically, clips of that famous Barbarino dance, which was always so funny. Hey, yo. He's a string bean.
Carolyn Cochrane 23:50
Yeah, I don't know what that's all about. It's about he had a big butt.
Michelle Newman 23:53
They kept talking about his butt,
Kristin Nilsen 23:54
apparently. But that's part of the transformation, because he Tony Manero, the character that he's playing in Saturday Night Fever is chiseled. He is rock solid. He is suave. He's got attitude that and swagger that Barbarino does not have, and that was work that the director and the crew had to do to get him prepared for this role, and John Travolta knew it. He had no intention of remaining a sitcom star. He wanted very badly to be a movie star, and so he was all in on this. So even that, that pose, if you think about his pose in the white suit on the on the movie poster, it's full of bravado. This wasn't what was showcased in the teen magazines or on Welcome back Cotter. He was a cute, lovable kind of rube, and by the way, not really a dancer at all. So they have to, they have to both transform his body, and they have to transform him into a dancer. And so they just put a call out there to say, hey, is there anybody who can teach this guy how to dance? And 26 year old Denny therio, this is one of the big. Biggest controversies in the whole saga of Saturday Night Fever. And I am so here for it, because if you recall in our in our episode, one of the remaining questions was, well, who choreographed Saturday Night Fever? Of course, Danny therio did. And we searched those credits and we didn't find his name anywhere. We're like, what the hell where is Danny therio? He is nowhere in these crazy told everybody he did because he's
Michelle Newman 25:25
a big fat liar. He's told everybody and like,
Kristin Nilsen 25:31
yes, there's a mythology that was created by Danny therio himself. So he he answers this call for somebody to teach John Travolta how to dance. Danny therio is not an instructor, he's not a choreographer, but he is part of a dance troupe called the lockers, which, by the way, also included Tony Basil and rerun from what's happening. Fred Berry, Fred Berry, but
Michelle Newman 25:55
you can just picture picture reruns. Dance, yeah, and then now that's how I picture
Kristin Nilsen 25:59
the lockers. Dance, yes, that's exactly how it is, exactly. So he works with Jenny theore for a couple of weeks, but the director is concerned, because when he's watching John Travolta dance with Jenny therio, first of all, he says he's fat. He's too fat, which is such bullshit. And he's also like he's breathing really hard, not he's not in very good shape. So they hired the guy who trained Sylvester Stallone for Rocky they hire him to get John Travolta into shape. And that guy hated Danny therio.
Michelle Newman 26:31
Yeah, he basically said, like everything he's been teaching you to dance, right? But he says he's not conditioning him, which makes a lot of sense, because he has to have stamina, right? So he's dancing and hitting his moves and hitting his finger pointing up and down, but he's out of breath. That's not going to play well to the cameras. So this guy, yeah, he ditches Danny therio,
Kristin Nilsen 26:53
and he be forbids him. He's like seeing Danny therio,
Michelle Newman 26:57
and he begins a three month training period with John Travolta running, doing calisthenics. And John Travolta drops 30 pounds. But Danny therio, he still asserts he was a choreographer on Saturday Night Fever. He actually even said, Here's a quote from the book. He says, every dance move that John Travolta did in Saturday Night Fever came from me, the finger point, the splits, knee drops. I invented all of it. And that's from a Financial Times article in 2012 and Margot just says the above statement by Mr. Cheerio is utter nonsense. Because you guys, they say, I mean, I get they had a few dance sessions and for a few weeks, several weeks, and
Kristin Nilsen 27:37
there's one photo, there's one photo of them together, which is, what is the the source of the mythology,
Carolyn Cochrane 27:44
has acknowledged that, yes.
Michelle Newman 27:46
So yes, started it. And it does say, I think I read in both in this book, Margot spoke, I read it was like, after Welcome back, Cotter was rehearsed for the night they would go and practice their dance moves, but, but that's, that's his total involvement in the movie. Everybody the eventual choreographer, Lester Wilson of Saturday Night Fever, says Danny therio never spent one day on the set,
Kristin Nilsen 28:10
nothing. So he's not in the credits. He's not on the movie. He's not involved in the
Michelle Newman 28:15
movie. So we all believed we were like, This is outrage. Where's his name in the credits, because we've been hearing Danny therio Tell us for years he did it. He didn't. So, I mean, he he did. He did have a contribution, because John Travolta has been very generous to include his name in people that helped him prep for the movie, because he, at the end of the day, he did. But as far as the choreography of all those dance moves, and especially of all the rest of them, you know, Donna Pascal and all the guys who played the faces, they're like, we didn't know how to dance. Yes, we couldn't dance. He had a so that was Lester Wilson the
Kristin Nilsen 28:51
so what happened, essentially, was that Danny therio, from then on, packaged himself, literally packaged himself, as the man who taught John Travolta how to dance, and his resemblance to John Travolta. And plus, this is very important, plus his friendship with Merv Griffin, talk show host, Merv Griffin, we know all about that is what sort of gave him the entree into the world of TV talk shows. And he started going on TV talk shows to both dance and talk about how he did Saturday Night Fever. And then, of course, Merv Griffin sees the rise of disco coming from this movie, and he wants to capitalize on it so he knows exactly who to tap. He's gonna take his buddy who looks like John Travolta, and make a new show called Dance Fever. And it's all predicated on the fact that Denny therio taught John Travolta how to dance.
Michelle Newman 29:40
God. You guys listening. If you want just some good laughter, first of all, just go to the YouTubes and watch old episodes of Dance Fever and then listen to our episode on Dance Fever, because we're laughing until we can't breathe, just describing how Danny therio, half the time it's like he's improv. Dancers, he doesn't know what he's doing, and so he just starts, like, doing the same move over and over, and they're not even, like, good moves. Yeah, they're really duped. I'm really and then he kisses them all. Richard Dawson of the dance TV shows gross,
Kristin Nilsen 30:20
and it is a quite a disservice to the to the actual choreographer who really was responsible, not just for that iconic dance solo that he did. He choreographed every movement of every person in the film, so that means the people on the dance floor, the extras who are on the dance floor, he's teaching them how to dance and giving them the moves that he wants them to do. He's trying to give the movie a certain flavor. That means he's choreographing John Travolta's movements that aren't even dance. So, right?
Michelle Newman 30:53
He's telling them how to put, like, $1 on the table, or how to put, you know, money in the strippers you know.
Kristin Nilsen 31:00
And he is responsible for the swagger of that first scene with John Travolta walking with the paint cans. That's what establishes everything about this movie, and it's the choreographer who conceived of that and taught him to do that. He created the style, the esthetic, the attitude, the movement, and unfortunately, his name gets lost in history. He was world famous. He was a hugely talented man, and he was so frustrated because Danny Terry was out there telling people that he choreographed Saturday Night Fever. And Danny Terry he it wasn't just that he was misleading people. He actually made up shit, like he told people that he was fired from the movie. He told people that Lester Wilson, like, barred him from the set. None of this is true. He was never a part of the movie. Still doubles
Carolyn Cochrane 31:54
down on it. From what I've gathered, it's not like he said, Oh yeah. Gigs up, you've found all the evidence to not support me. No, he is done.
Michelle Newman 32:01
No, because it's not like, it's his word against Lester Wilson's like are because in Margot's book, like I said, she interviewed 62 people, and many of those people come out and say, no, no, he was never on set.
Kristin Nilsen 32:13
Even motion. One of the women from motion, if you recall, motion, are the two women. There are two women who dance with Danny therio on on Dan's fever. And she actually was an ally of Lester Wilson's. She studied with him, and she said how painful it was to listen to Danny tarrio In interviews, because she, you know, motion there his arm candy. So they have to sit there with him, mouth closed, I'm sure, don't say a word while he would spin these tales. And she's in her own words, this is what she says. We had to sit there and listen to him blow smoke up his own butt.
Michelle Newman 32:47
You know what? It's shocking, isn't that how someone can just lie and lie and lie, and everybody believes that their own butt. All right, I wanted to talk just a little bit about the r versus the PG rating, because I don't know that until 2022 when we recorded episode 52 that I was I was realizing that it wasn't just like then they took the actual version and they made some edited for TV. They actually shot many, many, many of the scenes side by side. So the language in the R rated Saturday Night Fever, which I think we can all agree, is offensive with a capital O, and I'm not talking about the swearing, because that doesn't fucking bother me at all, but the racist and sexist and homophobic and just wildly cringe worthy comments. It was very important to writer, Norman Wexler and Robert Stigwood, who was the producer, as well as the actors, because they insisted it made this film gritty. That was their intention success, right? I mean, for sure, I would say that's why we don't like them because of all the stuff they're saying, which, especially in today's climate, is just like the characters we don't like the characters I don't like what's coming out of their mouths because it's constant, racist, homophobic, you know, sexist slurs, vile, and I know a lot more of those types of comments were more widely accepted in 19 you know, 1976 than they are today, but still awful. So when the director, John Badham, told them, he told the actors, okay, we're filming two versions, one rated R and one PG for TV, the actors got really upset. And so what you hear in the R rated version, he says, is actually a lot worse than what was written in the script, because they just started throwing in more fuck yous and shits and everything, because they were like, Fine, then let's go right? And they actually resisted filming second takes, because the. Like I said, he's like, we're going to film it R rated with all this the language, but now we're going to film the PG, the TV version. And they resisted filming those second takes without the language, because they argued it's ruining the purity, the grittiness of this
Kristin Nilsen 35:15
movie, which is why we're here. Like, this is a story
Michelle Newman 35:19
is and actually, to be honest with you, I'm not sure it works that well without it, to be honest, no. But I think this is funny. They say, once they learned about residuals, the director's like, let me tell you what a residual is. Everyone they got why it was important to film a TV appropriate version. And then they were all, like, on board. And maybe that is another reason too, that when I watched it, or the scenes I would see the PG version. It doesn't really work. It doesn't make sense, because they're like, You need to know sort of how vile they all are coming What are we? And when I say how vile, I understand now it's because of the culture they were raised in and the positions they find themselves in and how they want out, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but it doesn't really work if they're not slurring and, you know, slinging all these horrible phrases around, and the whole scene with Annette, yeah, there's no rape
Kristin Nilsen 36:13
scene in the PG version.
Carolyn Cochrane 36:14
It's two different movies. I mean, one is a film, I want to say, that has a plot and actors and all those things we were you were saying the grit the other one to me, it's almost like you could fast forward through parts. There were moments. There were the scenes that we remember, the you know, iconic dance scenes, all that other stuff. Who knows, I probably, if I had fast forward as an option, I maybe was not even listening to you. You were looking for the dance entertainment.
Michelle Newman 36:43
Yeah, exactly. I bet I did the same thing Carolyn, like, if someone had it on VHS, I was like, let's get to the dancing. And I couldn't I couldn't
Kristin Nilsen 36:51
have told you what the story was. I had no idea until we watched the R rated version. And I was like, Oh my God. I did not even know what this movie was about. And then I was harmed by by the predicament of these people, but I understood that there was now a story arc that these people are trying to be, or at least Tony Manero John Travolta is trying to rescue himself from a life that he doesn't want. You don't get that in the PG version, you're just weeding out the dance scenes.
Michelle Newman 37:22
They have to be. There's no marriage of that story you just described and the the character, if they are not, you know, saying all the fuck yous and the and the the slurs and the the way they treat people, because you also aren't like I said earlier. They didn't really expect you to like them. You didn't have to like them to understand how this was a relatable story for so many people, right? So in that PG version, nothing there was like. It wasn't copacetic, if that makes sense, I think if
Carolyn Cochrane 37:54
you ask people that just kind of remember the PG version, I would have said it's about a dance contest like I didn't need Donna Pascal's part. What is she
Kristin Nilsen 38:04
there for if there's no if there's no rape, not that we wanted a rape scene, my God. And that was one of the things in our in our episode that we did like that rape scene was so painful, it was so painful, and it was very difficult for us to rationalize why we were sitting there watching it and but now you can understand that as a piece of the movie, it shows what this what Tony was trying to escape. I'm trying to escape being friends with people who rape people. I don't want to be friends with you people. You're not good people.
Carolyn Cochrane 38:32
And it was also what, you know, it told so much about all of the characters in that one scene. I mean, yes, that is the, the major storyline, plot line, John Travolta, character trying to get out of all this. But it's also Donna Pascal playing that character so well in that scene, and realizing the stuckness. I mean, that's also the part I came out of this with, is how everybody's kind of stuck and almost has to resign themselves. And maybe John Travolta's character is the one that sees some kind of way to get out of it. But it's this resignation of being, I'm a woman in this culture, in this environment, this is, this is the way it's got to be. And it's just heartbreaking.
Michelle Newman 39:15
She says, In in fever, because, like we've said, listeners, Margo Donna Pascal was someone she talked to God, let's try to get her on the podcast. That would be kind of cool, right? And fever, it says at one point, Tony asks her in the PG version. I think we all know how the dial the words change in the art version. But he says he asks her if she wants to be a good girl or a pig? She replies, I don't know both, but in this world, she is stuck. If she doesn't get married and have babies soon, she'll be looked upon as an old maid, a horrible fate for nice Catholic girls. She believes she is aiming high with Tony because of his good looks, completely ignoring that the man and his friends are misogynist. Creeps who barely see women, even family members, as people. So she's stuck. She feels stuck. She's like, I don't want to do this, or I don't want to be chasing him, but I also don't want this other life. And there's a really great chapter in fever, all about Annette and about that scene, and about how it was shot, which you guys, like I said earlier, you know, I love all these behind the scenes things about the about, oh gosh, the guys who play the faces that are in that car with her, but by now they've all gotten to be friends. Oh, they just felt terrible. They felt awful. And they all just are so complimentary of Donna Pascal, like, how she just was like, No, you just go for it. Like you just have to, we have to do this. And they that helped. I love stuff like that too, though. That helped me.
Kristin Nilsen 40:50
Good Guys, yes, right? But these, it was sort of like being at camp. These people had, they were all young. They're all in their early 20s, and and they're doing this project together over that's something that's very important to them, and they become like camp mates, like bunk mates, and they all love each other, and now five of them are supposed to rape their friend. And like you said, it was, how do you? How do you do that they were acting, of course, but how do you, how do you pretend that you're harming somebody that you now love? And it helped me so much to read that, because, to their credit, when I'm watching it on screen, I hate them. I hate
Michelle Newman 41:30
Exactly. That's what I was saying earlier. Yeah, they're good actors.
Kristin Nilsen 41:33
Then yeah, so they've done their job. And it just Soothes my soul a little bit to know that they didn't take that lightly, that that wasn't just, oh, it's the 70s and people got raped all the time, that it was something that they took seriously, and it was not easy for them, right?
Carolyn Cochrane 41:49
And really very mature of them. One of the things that I learned, that I was most surprised with, was just how young and inexperienced this cast was in terms of their acting. I mean, Paul pape, who you referred to before this was his first movie role. I mean, he it's not like they'd been gone to professional acting school for years and had all these films under their belt. These were young first timers, mostly because I think of this incredibly small budget that they had to work with. I mean, I don't know that I realized until I read Margot's book, is just how low budget it was, how quickly it had to be done. I mean, they started it March, you know, filming in March, and ended in May. When you think now of how long a movie takes to film, oh my gosh, if that, I always feel bad for the actors when they have to go on, like, do the press tour, because really, they filmed the movie like three years before.
Kristin Nilsen 42:47
How do they remember?
Michelle Newman 42:48
Yeah, exactly, and they've done so many other projects,
Carolyn Cochrane 42:51
yes. And so I I'm amazed when I hear a lot of the casting, how it happened, and again, to this particular scene, how they were able to just portray it so well that we hated them, and yet be these young kids. I mean, some of them living in Brooklyn, because they acted the part, you know, they were thinking more these people have to be believable as kids that would live in Bay is it Bay Ridge or Bay Bridge? And these guys that would live in Bay Ridge even more so than maybe their how they're gonna portray some of these characters. And it just worked out. And that's kind of what I want to say about this book, what it taught me, or what I learned from it, was there was some part of the universe at work in making this movie what it was, because I think that, in and of itself, if it was just John Travolta as the lead actor, this movie isn't getting anywhere. If it was just the Bee Gees music, this movie isn't going to be what it was. If it was just Oh, disco is kind of up and coming, and this movie's about disco, it wouldn't have been what it was. It was this alchemy of these different, totally different factors coming together at the same time, at such a in such a crucial way, that made this beyond explanation, like you have to say, beyond serendipity or synchronicity. There was something magical that happened that brought these forces together at the time for a million dollar movie that became so defining of a generation.
Kristin Nilsen 44:30
And they and they, these were not like you said, this was a low budget movie. So it's not like, oh, the Bee Gees were so huge and John Travolta was so huge. No, the Bee Gees were on their way out. Exactly. John Travolta was a sweat hog, right? None, and none of and all of these young actors that you talk about, yeah, you're
Carolyn Cochrane 44:48
not going to see Paul pape, no, he was probably working at an ice cream store that you know
Kristin Nilsen 44:52
who he is. And the Bee Gees were, were ascendant because of the alchemy that you talk about. And John Travolta was ascendant because. Of the alchemy that you talk about, disco was ascendant because of the alchemy that you talk about it was they even talk about how, when they started filming the movie, their word of mouth about John Travolta being there grew to begin to become unsustainable, and they had no idea. They didn't think anybody would even know who he was. Now, there could have been some more knowledge about John Travolta, because the sweat hogs were supposed to be from Brooklyn. So it could be that the Brooklyn kids were holding on to John Travolta a little tighter than other kids around the country, but they said at one point, there was some woman that she talked to who was riding the bus to school one day, and they and the bus driver said, Hey, did you hear they're filming a movie with John Travolta? And she said, nobody went to school. They all skipped school, and they're all hanging on a subway platform. They're like, they're mobbing the subway platform so they can watch the filming, so much so that the subway trains can't even get in. And the camera people said there was no way they could film the shot without having these kids hanging off the subway platform. This is all from a kid that people thought nobody knew about. It was a complete surprise, and that's, you know, let's come full circle. That's all part of John Travolta's transformation from a sweat hog into an Oscar nominated and
Carolyn Cochrane 46:20
how about this being like the first film opportunity like that he gets that. It's such a rich part that he anyone else playing this, I tell you, I don't think that we're gonna be where we are. And another thing that Margot pointed out, too was that television actors didn't go into film that easily, like you were either a television actor or you were a film actor. So to go that back and forth was not that common, and also that the people that knew who John Travolta was were the younger people. And so initially, Saturday Night Fever is not aimed at this group. It was the gritty kind of, you know, rated our adult angle that I think they were first going in to this movie with. So I don't even know that when they hired John Travolta. I mean, what was it? $1 million a contract for three
Kristin Nilsen 47:12
movies, three movies in total, and
Carolyn Cochrane 47:15
they weren't, yeah, he didn't know his value then, and they certainly didn't know his value. So I think that was all discovered after the fact that, and then again, because of all of those pieces that came together just at the right time. I mean, give it a year before, give it six months before, whatever.
Kristin Nilsen 47:35
Yes, the timing was like the stars were aligning because he was positioning himself to not be a sitcom star. He had no intention of being a sitcom star. And they even offered, I didn't realize this, he was offered a spin off, a barberino spin off. And he said, No, thank you. I don't want to be a TV star. I'm going to be a movie star. Then a lot of you might remember that he had an album. You might remember his American Bandstand performance of letter in. Remember letter in? Yeah, and he was offered to forget it a mall tour. He was gonna get $25,000 per mall to go on a mall tour with that album. And he said, No, I would rather go do summer stock so I can polish my acting skills. Like he's got an idea in his head of where he wants to go, and it is not being a sweat hog, right?
Carolyn Cochrane 48:25
Yeah. So how lucky for him that this was the script that came his way, because we know some of the ones he did with Paramount after the fact were not that great. So yeah. So I'm glad that this was the one that kind of put him on our screens, our big screens, and that people got to see him, because we talk about in our episodes what a great actor he is, and his just his facial expressions.
Kristin Nilsen 48:53
Yeah, it was his on ramp to being an actor instead of a sitcom
Carolyn Cochrane 48:59
star, right? So after listening to our original episodes that we did about the movie, we commented on the fact that we did not think that Karen gorney, she was a good dancer, that she was a good actor. And so I found her little story that Margot was able to unveil some interesting tidbits about how she got the job. I found those interesting, and I think they backed up the fact that I don't think she still is a good actor, and I don't think she's a good dancer. And we at first, Kristen, you were doing your very high brow, they cast her as a non dancer because, you know, she was a poser. Yeah, she was a poser. And I'm thinking, no, she was sleeping with the director and to get in a taxi with, you know what, Robert stigwood's nephew or something, who said, Oh, I'm doing a movie. And she says, Oh, am I in it? And all of a sudden she has a job. And then, yeah, so there,
Kristin Nilsen 49:59
literally, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And the fact that she couldn't dance became a real problem on this set, whereas, in retrospect, I do think it's kind of a good device if she's not a perfect dancer, it makes it a little more interesting about what the history arc is. But I made that up so, and that's not true, yeah.
Michelle Newman 50:18
Except for, except for the thing I always will have a problem with is that they talk about what a great dancer she is, don't they? She's a good dancer. She's like an amazing dancer. And we're watching it, going, No, she's not.
Unknown Speaker 50:30
It's very that
Carolyn Cochrane 50:31
director keeps telling her she's a good dancer and tells everyone to tell her she's a good dancer. I feel like that was, yeah,
Kristin Nilsen 50:41
after, after Saturday Night Fever, this is where you're drinking the Kool Aid, and you're surrounding yourself with yes people after Saturday Night Fever, she tried to pursue dance a little more deeply as a career, and she even became a ballet instructor. And I was like, No, you did not. Did you see that? Plie?
Michelle Newman 50:58
She with Danny therio? Yes. She came on a strike.
Kristin Nilsen 51:01
We had a whole conversation in our episode about how she couldn't even do a plie. And I was like, there's somebody on set who can say, do it like this. But they didn't,
Carolyn Cochrane 51:12
but they were afraid to. I'm a think, I
Kristin Nilsen 51:14
think it's possible, because she was sleeping with the director. Yeah, I don't want to disparage her, because we don't know that they were doing it, but there was a relationship. Maybe they were just sleeping. It could be there. It was nighttime sleep. They were sharing a bed. But it does shed light on it, but it caused a lot of problems, because she has to keep up with John Travolta, who is now trained extensively, and the choreographer has said the words were something like, she just didn't understand her own body. They couldn't teach her. They she wasn't even teachable,
Carolyn Cochrane 51:50
and it was very fast, right? It was only a couple of weeks before they started shooting that she was even cast. So she didn't have these months of preparation that you know John Travolta had had
Kristin Nilsen 52:01
so you'll see in the movie that there is a place where she doesn't lift up her head, and you can't see her face, and she has funny hair. That's because it's a body double, because she could not master this dance routine.
Michelle Newman 52:14
Believably sherio. That would be a lady probably so pissed.
Kristin Nilsen 52:22
Yeah, I could be Carolyn gorney, and the person who was the superior dancer was Donna Pascal. She was really quite good, and she could keep up with him. And that scene where she's dancing with John Travolta is adorable, and that's where you really become a fan of Annette slash Donna Pascal. You're like, I really want the best for her, and then he just shits on her, Tony. Tony. So there's one chapter in mauro's book that we're not gonna talk about today, because I think it deserves its own episode we've only ever touched upon and danced around the 1983 debacle, slash sequel to Saturday Night Fever, called staying alive. It is a bonkers movie. And Margo shaking her head, I know, and I and please understand, I loved this movie. I lapped it up, but it was horrible. It was really, really bad, but I didn't care. I loved it, but Margot has a whole chapter devoted to it. She answered so many questions for me like I said, it's either a beloved movie or a much maligned movie, and it went kind of strangely under the radar, given that it was the sequel to one of the biggest movies of all time. And in my original conclusion for this episode, I had written this gracious invitation to Margot to join us again so we could talk about her chapter on stayin alive. I am so sad that we can't make that happen, but in tribute to her and her beloved Brooklyn, we look forward to another disco book club featuring her book fever and Margot's research on stayin alive.
Michelle Newman 53:59
I'll watch it. Yeah. Yeah, oh, sure, and I'll try not to watch it, yeah. But I kind of, I kind of want
Kristin Nilsen 54:04
to know it would be easy to hate watch it, and it's funny, because in, and I'll reference this again, in in the chapter, they do say, for some reason, people have memorized pieces of dialog from that movie, despite the fact that it is so much maligned. And as soon as I read that for the book, the lines started coming out of my mouth. I wrote it. I actually wrote the lines in the margins of the book. I knew the
Michelle Newman 54:28
dialog. Here's a question for you. Then, Kristen pirate movie with Christopher Atkins and Christy McNichol, or staying alive
Kristin Nilsen 54:39
Well, but what depends on your definition. That's apples and oranges. A little bit. Okay, apples and oranges. But what am I going to enjoy more? Definitely staying alive. Sure it is. It is bonkers, and we'll talk about it someday.
Michelle Newman 54:54
Okay? We'll do it sometime. Yeah.
Carolyn Cochrane 54:56
Well, speaking of enjoying, we think that you all will. Enjoy reading fever, a complete history of Saturday Night Fever, and you can purchase that wherever you buy your books, but we would love you to consider buying it from bookshop.org using the links that you can find in our show notes on our website and in our link tree on Instagram and Facebook, because buying from bookshop.org benefits small independent bookshop owners instead of billionaires, and when you use our links, those proceeds are also shared with us. So this is another way that you can help support this podcast, and we greatly appreciate it.
Michelle Newman 55:33
And we have a whole shop on bookshop.org so we have many other books that if you're a reader, you like, books about Gen X, pop culture history, or just a lot of the books that the three of us were all avid readers, so the three of us love, are loving. Go check out our shop on bookshop.org and we would also like to thank our supporters on Patreon who pledge monthly donations to help us pay our bills. You can find a link to our Patreon page and all the places Carolyn just mentioned, show notes, website and linktree, and one of the ways we say thank you is by mentioning a group of them by name at the end of each episode. So today, we're giving a special shout out to joy Carrie Carolyn with Kay Terry, Victor, Colleen, Tam, Lisa Kieran, Carolyn, Diane Jill, Terry with an A, T, A, R, I Theresa with an H and Deb.
Kristin Nilsen 56:33
Thank you, everybody. In the meantime, let's raise our glasses for a toast. Margot Donahue, author, yeah for sure fever, a complete history of Saturday Night Fever, and courtesy of the cast of Three's Company, two good times,
Michelle Newman 56:46
two Happy Days,
Carolyn Cochrane 56:48
Two Little House on the Prairie. Cheers. Everybody. Cheers. Everyone Cheers.