PCPS Light - Dolly Parton: We Will Always Love You

Speaker 1 0:00

Until now, you had to choose between good taste and low calories. Until now.

Speaker 2 0:17

Refreshing Pepsi Light, the cola with a lemony taste in and half the calories of regular colas out.

Kristin Nilsen 0:28

Hi everybody! Welcome to the first PCPS light episode of the season. These are the episodes light on prep, but full of great taste that we record for you while we work on our next season of episodes, because season 20 is right around the corner. Today's light episode may not be all that light because we have a lot of feelings that we need to get out there. This is more of an emergency recording than a light recording because we've now been living for almost a week in a world that doesn't have Dolly Parton in it, and this is the first time the three of us have looked each other in the face to say all the things that we need to say. There are so many feelings in the world right now. I don't know about you, but I have been mostly scrolling social media and crying because social media is crying right now. My whole feed is people talking about Dolly Parton. You know what? Though

Michelle Newman 1:20

that was therapy for me on oh

Kristin Nilsen 1:22

absolutely the

Michelle Newman 1:23

day that she passed I and that's how I found out is social media I was sitting in the hair chair my hairstylist ran downstairs to get my color and I opened Instagram and I saw the first post that came up was her nephew and I had it on silent but I looked at it, and he was so serious, you know, with that black background, and I was like, "Who's this? What? And I see whose page it is, whose account it is, and I see that it's not her. Yeah. And all I saw was one comment underneath that was all caps that said I am devastated, and I was just like, wait, no, no, no, no. So I I scrolled out of it and went to Google, and and I wrote in Dolly Parton, and it still said age 80. You know, said nothing about her death. Oh, so I was like, oh, then what is this? What's going on? Maybe she's announcing something new. So I was like duped, right? So that's when I went back and I just I just read the captions at the bottom, and literally my hand was over my mouth and I was shaking. And then when my hairstylist came up, I told her and she announced it to the whole salon. And then we put on you know she put on Dolly Parton. We was like, what I was going to say about the social media though is Kristen, I that was my therapy that day, I will say that I probably spent well over two hours scrolling because it did somehow. It oh, I was so heavy. That's the only way I know how to describe it. But somehow, all the tributes and all the words and the quotes and the music and the beautiful pictures and just this collective experience of grief made me feel a little bit lighter.

Kristin Nilsen 3:06

I couldn't stop. I could. I literally couldn't stop.

Carolyn Cochrane 3:09

Yeah, I remember listeners. Let me tell you that we have a text thread as PCPS, but we only use it in case of emergency. So when the three of us are communicating, we usually use another channel for just little things. We know it's super important when we get a text that from PCPS, and we got one from Michelle. And sometimes my heart just does a little something because you're not sure what it's going to be. And I saw that, and it was it literally took the breath out of me. I mean, I just it was a gut punch.

Michelle Newman 3:42

Can I just say really quickly? I have, like Kristen just said, y'all listening. This is the first time we've spoken. We've texted a million times or messaged a million times, but this is the first time we can. We're speaking to each other about Dolly's passing. I do want to apologize when I when I realized what happened. I needed so badly for you guys to know with me, but I had zero time to to make it. Like I've told you guys the story before when I had to break it to my mom that Princess that you know Diana died, and I was like, Mother, I have something to tell you, and I don't know how I'm gonna tell. I just needed, and I think I just sent it in all caps. Dolly Parton died with exclamation points, and I felt really bad after I said that. No, but I just, I, I was like, I, I can't live in a world where Carolyn and Kristen don't know this with me right this moment. Yeah,

Carolyn Cochrane 4:35

exactly. I think that's to your point of the shared collective piece of all of this is just knowing that you're not alone in these feelings, and there's something that does make that whole thing a little bit lighter, even though it's a really heavy, heavy thing. Yes, the the social media piece and the three of us knowing together was super important, I think.

Kristin Nilsen 4:56

And that you can see in our text thread, and we got texts from other. Because people knew that we would care, or people who really cared about Dolly and wanted, just like what Michelle said, there were other people who texted us who wanted to be in this moment with us. And if you look at those text threads, we are going through the five stages of grief. Yes, we were the first. We were like, no, no, like we're just in denial. There's our denial. Then we're anger. Then there's anger. There was one person who was even like, "Fuck God! No, not like there was anger. I

Michelle Newman 5:27

immediately said, "None of you ask me to share this on social media in our stories because I do not have the capacity to do that right now. Right. And then I did go and share it about an hour later because then I did. But in those first moments, that was going to make it way too real if I had to go on and share it on PCPS's social media. I couldn't do

Kristin Nilsen 5:48

it. My first, my very first text. This is where I know the five stages of grief are coming in. I was just coming out of a facial, and by coming out, I mean like opening my eyes, and I got a little tap on my on my on my watch, on my Apple Watch, and I hold it up to my face, and it's my friend Colleen, and it just says, "Dolly Parton died, and I didn't. I was like, like I didn't have any. I couldn't do any reaction. I held my phone, my my watch up to my mouth, and I texted, "Oh my God! And then I got up and I just started walking one foot in front of there. Walking. It was like I was pretending that nothing had. I was. I I I couldn't really figure out what was happening. I couldn't have any reaction. I couldn't even do the no. I couldn't even do that yet. And then your text started coming into me, and that's. I think the first text that I had to you said, "What the fuck, what? Yeah, that's all that I could do. But you know what? It is

Michelle Newman 6:46

really much, you know, this denial, this first stage, is very much like that's that was me when I found out my mom died. Not to equate Dolly Parton's death to my mom's death, but in a way, Dolly Parton was all of us felt like she was somehow part of a family that we didn't know that we had, but I, for the first you know, 15 minutes after I found out my mom had died, was just going. I must have said the word "what" and screamed the word "what" 400 times. What? What? What? But this denial and this shock that this collective shock that we were all feeling. You know, normally when I'm getting the hair color put on my hair, my hairstylist Christy and I jabber jabber jabber, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. What are your kids doing? What's going on now? What trips do you have coming up? Blah blah blah. How's your summer gone? The entire like half an hour, she was coloring my roots. She knew, like she's, she could be like my little our little sister, she's she's probably about 810 years younger than we are, but I could tell she was shocked that Dolly had died, but it wasn't at all like anything that was going to maybe wreck her day.

Speaker 3 7:54

Yeah,

Michelle Newman 7:54

she knew I sat there either scrolling my phone or just staring, just staring, staring. She was in silence. She didn't ask me a question, and I really appreciated that we were silent. She just gave me that space. I just sort of felt like cold inside, like in disbelief. And I think it's because like Dolly Parton was someone you just always thought would be there, right? Like I feel like, and I well, and one of the first posts I read was Tyler Merritt's post. And and listeners, if you don't already follow the Tyler Merritt project on Instagram, please do. He's just such a wonderful human, and I do not know how man he quickly had time to write this out, but it was then it was like within moments, and it was a very long caption. I was screenshotting that. I was because it just said what we were all feeling. I sent it to my family right away, but I just wanted to read you this part because this will kind of kickstart. I think the next part of our our conversation. He said, "Dolly Parton always seemed like one of those people we had collectively agreed was simply not allowed to die, like Betty White, and then he says a couple other people, but then he says like somebody should have put it in the Constitution. Dolly stays. Dolly stays, right?

Carolyn Cochrane 9:18

Yes, and I

Kristin Nilsen 9:20

and I kind. I'm sorry, Carolyn. No, no, no. I was just going to say, and I think this is the one thing that the majority of Americans would have agreed on about the Constitution is that Kelly should stay. Yeah. And I felt foolish after a while, being in such shock. And Kristen, you saw yesterday on the news, the day before, there was a story about how she was making a statement about her she was having some hard times, and I, the hairs on the back of my neck went up. I'm like, why is she saying that right now? And they're being very elusive, like they never said why she was having hard times, and it was a statement that mirrored one that she had made several months. Before, and I thought she had come through that because I had seen her on stage. I had seen clips of her, and she looked well and good. So I'm like, why are they doing this right now? Boom, 24 hours later, and so then I was angry at myself for being taken by surprise. Like she's 80 years old. We knew she was sick. She was making statements about, "I ain't dead yet. Yeah. Why are you samacked in the face? And yet, on the way home, I texted this to you guys. On my drive home, I almost got T-boned twice. I pulled out in front of two cars on my drive home because I was not in my body.

Michelle Newman 10:35

No.

Carolyn Cochrane 10:35

Yeah.

Michelle Newman 10:36

But because she, even though she yes, she had been saying, I just I let a lot of health issues go when I was looking after Carl and blah blah blah, and I always thought she's sugarcoating this a little bit. Yeah. Now we turn. Now we find out she had been in the hospital for four days. But Kristen, like you said, you should have known. Did you guys have you guys been following Brandy Carlile's story about all of this? Because listeners, we all are huge Brandi Carlyle fans, and I, I just love her, and so I've been paying kind of attention to how she's feeling about all this. The day before Dolly died, she says she doesn't even know why, but she was on stage. She sang. She did a cover of Coat of Many Colors, and she said to the audience, Dolly needs our prayers right now. Now, my husband's like, well, there's probably more to that because we have turned, we have found out in the days since that Dolly loved brandy. She would always send like nice cards and whatever, but it's like she actually has said, I don't know what possessed me that day on the 24th to say Dolly needs us right now, and I just want to share this because the on the 26th, Brandi Carlile's concert was in Chicago, and she's just chatting with the audience like she loves to do, and she says, "I just think this is so perfect. She goes, "Well, it's our first full day in the world without Dolly Parton. It's tough, isn't it? And then she's like, "How's everybody doing? And you can kind of hear the people that are recording going, "Ugh, like no. And she goes, "But, but how well behaved is the world today? She goes, "Did you notice that everyone is on their best behavior now that Dolly can see all of us at the same time? Like none of us want to disappoint Dolly now. And then she goes on now. Yeah, she's like now she can see us all. We're all being we're on our best behavior. And then she goes on to tell a few cute stories about when she brought her little girl to meet Dolly. But I think I do think people in the know knew more than obviously, and and they should not not that we right we all feel like I felt a little bit duped like how did we not know that she was this sick or anything? Well, of course we didn't. Who am I? You know we didn't like it of our business. I mean,

Carolyn Cochrane 12:54

at the same time though, she didn't have any any just obligation to let us know, like I think she was somebody, and I hope we can learn from this that the public and the media kind of respected her privacy. Like this was not a death we found out about from TMZ or you know some security guard at the hospital, whatever. Like this played out on her own terms, and I don't feel like she owed me anything more than what she gave us. I think like you're entitled to, you know, your privacy and as a whole, as a collective, just society. I think we respected that, which makes it even the more sad that like for Hayden, a death a few weeks ago, we did not, and that was almost the opposite of what we experienced. Like she owes

Kristin Nilsen 13:46

us something. I mean, think about it. We only have the media only has two photos of her husband. How many times have you seen those photos of her husband in the last three days? Right, because they only have two,

Carolyn Cochrane 13:58

and they respected that. Nobody was like hiding in the bushes at their, you know, wherever wherever they lived, trying to catch a picture of him or trying to stalk him, you know, playing, you know, going out and cutting the grass, whatever he did. Like we just knew that Dolly's husband didn't like the spotlight. We respected that. She acknowledged that, and we all went on with our lives just fine. And we knew they were in love, and so be it. There was no like trying to gotcha moments with Dolly, where I feel like everybody else is experiencing. And I just want to follow up, Michelle, when you were talking about Brandy's first comment about I just know she needs our prayers. But one of the things I feel strongly about with Dolly and and Brandi in a way too. I feel like there are some artists in our lives, Dolly being primarily one of them, that kind of transcended Earth, that had this kind of go back and forth between here and there, and kind of could see through that veil a little bit. I mean, I feel another artist death that hit. Me hard in the last month. I mean, these were both in July. Was Glenn Hansard? He's another songwriter person that I thought could put words to things that I thought could never have words put to them. Like there are just some feelings and things I have inside, and you read them or hear them in music. You're like, oh my god, that's it. Like, how do they know? But somehow they they do, and so I feel like there was this otherworldliness about Dolly. And then I read a quote on on social media from the music critic, not the music critic, from Roger Ebert, or the film critic, who talks about the first time he meets her, and it's at the Dallas premiere of Nine to Five, the movie, and he said that I had been granted a private half tour with Dolly Parton, and as we spoke, I'm, I was filled with a strange ethereal grace. This was not spiritual, nor was it sexual. It was healing and comforting, and then Jean Siskel, who's listening to Roger share the story, said, "Roger, I felt the same exact thing during my interview with her. We looked at each other. What did this mean? Neither of us have ever felt that feeling again. From time to time, we would refer to it in wonder, and I think that sums it up. They were in that that orbit of hers, and you hear this in different ways from different people on social media now that were able to meet her in person. But this, to me, sums it up, and I think that word wonder just kind of says it. She was wonder, kind of personified and awe and all of these things. She just did things that I think some of us think are impossible. Whether it is not to be stalked by the media and hounded, whether it was writing 3000 songs plus writing, you know, Jolene and help me, guys! Look, I've lost it. She wrote Jolene and I will always love you, like in the same day, if I'm not mistaken. Oh, I didn't know that. First, I've heard of that. Yeah, yeah. So, like these things that are that we see as there is no way on God's green earth. I don't care what you tell me. The odds are zero that something would ever occur. And Dolly seemed to just put those odds like to shame. Like I'm going to write these songs. I'm going to you know just transcend generations, transcend genres, transcend political views. She just I think was transcend

Kristin Nilsen 17:36

convention. Yes, like convention meant nothing to her.

Carolyn Cochrane 17:39

No, and we didn't hound her for that. We everybody honored it.

Kristin Nilsen 17:44

Well, there is a there is another social. We'll be bringing up social media posts frequently, I think, because this is like you said, Michelle. This is where we're going for our healing right now. And there was one person who said to speak to your transcending and to speak to your otherworldly aspect. There was somebody who suggested that perhaps the deaths of Dolly Parton and Tim Curry were the end of the continuum of a time period that started with the deaths of Prince and David Bowie, which was 2016, prior to the 2016 election. That there was a rupture, there was a seam that was ripped, and perhaps these deaths are sewing up that scene. They're ending this time period. I

Michelle Newman 18:24

tell you what, everybody who can, we need eyes on Sally Field. We need eyes on Cher. We need eyes on Judy Fonda. Julie Andrews. My God, everybody wrap these people in bubble wrap and keep them close to you. I will say too, one of the things that is, you know, all the different people are doing such wonderful art too, right? With just a lot of Dolly quotes and stuff, and we just keep saying, "Be more like Dolly, be more Dolly in a world of Donald's, be a Dolly. You know all this stuff, but be more Dolly, and it just makes me think. You know, there aren't a ton of celebrities who really do kind of cross the line and are loved and appreciated and respected by everyone. By

Kristin Nilsen 19:10

everybody. I don't know

Michelle Newman 19:12

of anyone who has ever worked with Dolly. Obviously, that you hear other celebrity songwriter singers, they have nothing but just wonderful, incredible things to say about her, but just regular old people like us, right? Have you ever in your life met anyone who, when you say something about Dolly Parton, goes, "Ugh, yeah, oh my god, never, never,

Kristin Nilsen 19:34

and then and the people who do embrace her, sometimes sometimes it makes complete sense, and sometimes it doesn't make any sense at all. Yesterday, I was with my mom while she was going through surgery, and I'm in the room with her, and they're and they're getting ready to do the anesthesia. She's lying there in her bed in her in her in her scrubs, and she's got her little hairnet on and everything, and we're very silent because we're just. Waiting for the anesthetist to do all of the things, and we haven't said anything for a long time, and she just apropos of nothing says, "I still can't get over Dolly Parton. I just can't believe it. I hope she didn't suffer. Like there was no conversation. We weren't having any conversation. She just comes out of that. It comes out of her before going under the anesthesia, and I need to remind you. Longtime listeners know this, but I need to remind you that my mom is a classical music person. There are very few popular music things that she likes. She liked a few carpenter songs. She liked Helen Reddy. She liked Peebo Bryson for some reason.

Michelle Newman 20:40

I mean, who did I then decide to why?

Kristin Nilsen 20:42

Right, but otherwise, she was very staunchly in the classical music arena. She has not just no knowledge of country music, but she has disdain for country music. I'm not saying that she should. I'm just saying that historically, that's who she is. She'd be like, and that is not her world.

Michelle Newman 21:04

That was same with my mom. Yeah, yeah. It just was not for her.

Kristin Nilsen 21:07

You know, she drank tea with her pinky up, and I've never heard her say a word about Dolly Parton in my whole life, not one time. But my mom is kind of taken down by this too. I called her the night that it happened, and she's like, "I can't talk right now. I'm watching the Dolly Parton special, and it was very clear. Like, I need to call her later, and so then it was when it was days later. So when she's lying there with her little hairnet on, it's days later, and she just pops out with, "I still can't believe it about Dolly Parton.

Michelle Newman 21:36

Well, it was one of the biggest pop culture icon losses that we've experienced. I mean, yes, people listening, you can be shouting names at me right now. That's fine. Right, right. I'm gonna stand by this one for. I'm gonna stand by my girl for a little bit because I do think I just. That's how I just felt so like heavy and like this is the loss. This is such a tremendous loss. Also, just because of what a tremendous person and philanthropist she was, I I do want to go back and just say something because I have to. When I said you know she could cross basically cross political lines, cross whatever, I do want to say one thing that's been bothering me. And just because we have this outlet, I'm going to one thing that has kind of bothered me. Don't lower the flags, you know, at half mast and think that's honoring Dolly. That has been driving me crazy. You want to honor Dolly? Dolly doesn't care if you lower the flags at half mast. If you want to honor Dolly, people that are lowering your flags to half mast, you go out and you treat everyone you see-straight, gay, trans, black, blue, green, brown. I mean, whatever. You treat anyone who who represents themselves with a different color, with a different flag, with a different-and I mean all types of flags. You treat them all as equal human beings, and you be a nice person, right? And that's how you honor her. So I just feel that it's very hypocritical for the people that are lowering flags that do not support any people as human beings. And so I just had to say that because that is something that has just been in my craw the past two days, like made me really angry, and I don't want to be angry about any of this. I you want to look at it and go, well, isn't that a lovely tribute or a lovely way to honor? No, I mean, sure, as long as you're doing

Kristin Nilsen 23:33

critical, as long as you're

Michelle Newman 23:34

doing the other thing too, as long as then you you know support trans rights or support you know LGBTQ plus community as long as you support you know people of all colors

Kristin Nilsen 23:44

because as she very famously said and she said so many things that we could quote right now people always say that she was famously apolitical not really you guys no she wasn't but she didn't a

Michelle Newman 23:56

really beautiful way she did a very

Kristin Nilsen 23:58

personal way she made lots of I statements and she just said, "I believe these are all God's children. Who am I to judge? That's God's job. That's not my job. Exactly. Right? And how were there ever any truer words ever spoken ever in the history of the world? Why isn't that in the Bible? Right.

Carolyn Cochrane 24:15

Thank you. And why I think too, because I believe she was part of this just transcendence and this kind of gateway portal, whatever you want to say to the other side. I feel like when she kind of left this one, this portal, I felt it. I felt like there was an energy that left, to be honest, this place when she was no longer among us on this planet. I think that that was something that makes me really sad. To your point, Michelle, that you know this person that just lived it. They walked the talk. They didn't have to wear a shirt or show themselves whatever at a political event. They just it was who they were, and they lived it. And I think for some of us who try to do that, but. Can't do it without getting angry or whatever. It's just it was like oh at least there's there's Dolly. Dolly is is walking the talk. Yeah, I know this person walks among me and this planet, and that grief was really hard knowing she's not among us. Which again, Michelle, I think the best way to honor her now is let us walk the talk. Let us do these things that she that she just did without thinking, without fanfare. Just those were she just wasn't showy. And at a time where everything is so showy, it's just like and

Kristin Nilsen 25:32

people are pressing people to make statements about everything. Sometimes you just the actions speak much louder than the words. And I think one of the great examples of that is when she had her show. I don't know if this was at Dollywood or anyway. This show was called Dixie Stampede, and people wrote to her explaining to her what the word Dixie meant to them. How this is a painful word for me, and she just she didn't make a statement. She didn't have a press conference. She just quietly removed the word Dixie from her show, she renamed her show to honor those people who said this is painful for me, and she and it was enough people that she knew that it wasn't just a couple of crybabies. She felt people's pain, and she knew that this was a collective pain, and she played a role in it. So, what role does she play? I'm not going to give those people pain. I'm just going to quietly remove the names. She doesn't listen. I'm going to listen. Yes, and I'm gonna honor you. And that's how she did everything. And so maybe this feeling that you had, Carolyn, of of an energy that shifted, maybe it's because she's done her work on Earth, and now it's it's our turn to go out there and do her work. Yes. Treat everybody as one of God's children, whenever you see something, ask yourself, "What would Dolly think about this? If he truly knew, how would

Michelle Newman 26:48

she react? Right? How would she react? What would

Carolyn Cochrane 26:50

her feelings be, and what would she do? You don't have to wear a T-shirt. I wear T-shirts all the time. That's my thing. Like you don't have to. I'm not making. Yes. Everybody has their own way of doing it, but yes, but she had an action, like an action that could really make a difference because she had the means to do that. I mean, we don't all have millions of dollars to you know advance COVID vaccine research, but we can do something. We can wear a t-shirt. I'm not saying that anything bad about wearing a t-shirt. Do what you can with what you have and the platform you have, and she did, but she didn't make a big again a big to do about it, and that's what I think I appreciate is that she did it for the right reasons, and not for the attention or the PR or whatever.

Kristin Nilsen 27:36

Yeah, exactly.

Carolyn Cochrane 27:38

I do want to follow up, Kristen, with something you were talking about regarding your mom, because the second aspect of this death of Dolly that hit me kind of unexpectedly was how some memories of my dad came flooding back. So it started. I mean, I was like I said, I had the gut punch. I had all the reactions that people had when I found out on that day, but it was really that night when I'm under my big black Afghan, so Andy can't see the light of my Kindle or not my Kindle, my you know iPad, and so I am scrolling as you do. And it was the first time I saw the video of when she and Kenny Rogers do a duet of "We've Got Tonight, so it's not a duet they do regularly. And she comes out; he's in concert, and she comes out on stage and sings with him. And you see his face when she comes out. And we would always kind of say, "My dad resembled Kenny Rogers a little bit. And so when this moment happened, that is when my tears started falling, and then I started remembering these moments with with my dad, and so I'm just gonna try to say this quickly. But if you remember, we moved when I was like two from New York to Texas, and my dad was going to embrace this country western lifestyle. By golly, we were he was buying the cowboy hat. He was taking you know two year old Carolyn to see Jim Neighbors at the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo with her own cowboy hat and little holster and all of that stuff. When anyone would come visit us, we would go to the Astrodome. He would play, you know, country music. He was all in on this, and so he probably thinks he had something to do with this. But you know, mid 70s, we're kind of seeing this crossover. Kenny Rogers was probably one of the first Olivia Newton-John. You know how I felt when we did our little Olivia Newton-John tribute again to my dad. They had these country roots, but then they were kind of going over into the pop genre. So we would hear them on the radio a lot, and then we move. Remember, I've shared that a lot lately. We move from Texas to New Jersey, and by golly, my dad is going to bring Country Western to New Jersey. He is going to make sure everyone knows who Kenny Rogers is, and this is just when Dolly has "Here You Come Again. So we've got a little of her popularity going, and my dad-that was his thing. And so we listened to that music was kind of on the radio. Dolly was on the radio as we're making. Road trip, and my mom reminds me that that was my dad's thing. So whenever they were in a newcomers club for all the people like that were doing in the area, and whenever my parents were hosting it or hosting Bridge, my dad was like, "We are playing this music, you know, we are playing Dolly or playing Kenny. And so for his 40th surprise birthday party, I did not know this, but she said one of the gifts he got from a couple in the neighborhood was all of Dolly's music up until that point in time. So this would have been 1981, no, 1979 rather, that he got all this, and so no doubt that was always playing in our home, and I just thought again, this because of our generation, because of how old we were when Dolly was kind of ascending, kind of to the peak of her career from you know the beginnings to we could talk about nine to five and all of those things after. I mean, you know Hannah Montana watching her as adults while our kids are watching Hannah Montana and she's on there. Anyway, it's just she was always there and she was there through very significant times of our lives, and I've shared how you know just meaningful and hard and all of that. That move, that transition was for me. But now realizing she was a background to that the whole time. Yes, your whole life.

Carolyn Cochrane 31:16

You're really my whole life, and very much tied to my dad and this, you know, kind of persona he wanted to have of like I'm country western and look I know Dolly Parton songs and I know Kenny Rogers songs and come on come with me I know what's going on and so it made me just long for him again and be like that would be somebody who I'd be on the phone with right now or you know we would be talking about about this and remembering funny things about her. And so, again, I'll be all mushy about this, but I feel like there's there's a piece of me that thinks, oh well, she's up there. You know, she's she's up with those that energy now, with that with those spirits. My dad's up there; they're doing their thing, and and that kind of makes me happy, and makes me feel not so far away from them. I guess you know. Again, the gift of this podcast in these moments is I get to be with my dad for a little bit. So, thank you, Dolly. I

Kristin Nilsen 32:14

think a lot of people are going to be feeling what you feel, Carolyn. How many people out there are are were listening to Dolly Parton because of their parents. Right, that's going to be so so many people out there, and so they're going to be crying alongside you. My feelings about Dolly Parton really morphed over the decades. Again, because she was with us the whole time. Right, she's been with us the whole time, and I had no, unlike you, I had no experience with the world of country music beyond heehaw, right? So my so my first exposure there. There's a whole world of Dolly Parton that came prior to her 1977 crossover album that we talked about in our 1978 music episode, AM Radio Gold. Again, are we witches? We just talked about Dolly Parton two weeks ago. So there's so much that is that is there to be dug into prior to 1977. But my first exposure was that 1977 crossover album, and in that 1978 AM Radio Gold episode is where I talk about Dolly being at the State Fair and how we were living just like blocks away from the state fair, and when she sings "Here You Come Again, my dad comes up to my bedroom and opens my bedroom window so I can sing along with her because I can hear it from my house. I didn't even know Jolene or Coat of Many Colors. I didn't know any of those songs until I was an adult. So I feel like there is an eye-opening that comes to a lot of us who have been with Dolly's for their entire lifetimes, but there's so much that we didn't know. And you get more out of it as an adult. Your world is enriched when you understand what Jolene means and where it comes from. That this comes from a real story that happened to her when this bank teller was flirting with Carl Dean. I also love how she always called him Carl Dean. Like his first and last name, Mike Noonan. That's like Leanne. Those double names. Yeah, Leanne always calls her

Michelle Newman 34:06

her Chuck Morgan. Yeah, I I definitely have memories of Dolly from the early well, not early 70s. I was a toddler, but the mid 70s into the and because of because of being with my dad in Texas, Carolyn, like you were saying, I mean, and and like you said about Linda, my mom was not. My mom, I will, I will absolutely say, my mom did not at all dislike Dolly Parton. I think she thought she was loved. She loved like I was obsessed with the movie Nine to Five in 1980, 8182, because of my mom. I mean, my God, it was Jane Fonda, Lily Tomlin, Dolly Parton. My mom was all over that movie. I believe we owned it on our video disc. I've told you guys about. We did not get to get a VHS, but my stepfather comes home with a video disc player, which you know they only made about 12 video discs, and I believe Nine to Five was one of them. Anyway, I was obsessed with that movie. And I, I think I'd like to just go on record right now and say that we're gonna do nine to five this upcoming season. Like I'm gonna bump something that I might have suggested for season 20 because this is timely. But what I was gonna say is, as far as her music goes, absolutely we listened to Dolly at my daddy's house in West Texas, I can remember my stepmother Vicky, who's still alive and well, and has kind of hair about the size of Dolly Parton. Still, she's still a very West Texas person. Her and her husband, I see them out there, always killing things with their shotguns. Anyway, she had a, but at the time, she was like young, darling Vicky, like in the 70s. I just remember her. My mom did not like how darling Vicky was, but the blonde curly hot rolled hair. Yeah, but yet yes, but she had a Dolly Parton T-shirt. I remember, like probably from the T-shirt shack at the mall or something that was ironed on. So yeah, we listened. But I am embarrassed to say that other than most of the very big, well-known hits, I have until the past two days, I have not been that knowledgeable. And now, you know, songs that I had heard before, like "Love Is Like a Butterfly, like these ones, I am playing those songs on repeat now because of just how beautiful they are and how I'm like, why, why did I not listen to more? You know, I've had all the like all the all the standards, right? I've had our playlists about

Kristin Nilsen 36:28

that because I think that especially with music like this that has been with us for our entire lives, it doesn't come to you until you need it, and so it's possible you didn't need those songs pre previously. And for those of you who follow me on social media, I had one perfect example of that. Like I said, I didn't come to many of these songs until I was an adult. But when you need it, it's there for you, and it comes to you. And one of those songs that came to me was "Light of a Clear Blue Morning. Ah, so this was it. It's hard for me to explain what that song did for me? Sorry, shit. I can't speak and cry at the same time. When George Floyd was killed, my city was on fire, and at night there was a curfew, and you had to go inside. And there were intruders in my city. It was basically like Robin Hood. It was like there was there were invaders in my city, and it was not it was not safe to be outside, and so inside you would stay inside and you would hunker down all night and you would watch TV to find out what heinous things were happening, and then in the morning, it would all go away. Like the sun would rise and everything was fine, and I mean it wasn't fine, but it was this it was this this hush after the storm, and this went on for several days. And every morning I would get up and I would go outside. I would walk across the street to the park. I would put my earbuds in and I would listening. I would listen to "Light of a Clear Blue Morning. I would listen to the whole song from the very beginning, where she says, "It's been a long, hard night, and then the song, and she-it just felt like she was speaking directly to me, and then the song turns into a riot of hope, because there's always the light of the clear blue morning. It's gonna be, and then she says, "It's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. She says it over and over again. It's gonna be okay. I know for a fact that that song has saved people's lives, literally.

Michelle Newman 38:26

Yeah, there are

Kristin Nilsen 38:27

people who are on death's door, and that song kept them from doing something bad. How how is that not an angel on earth?

Carolyn Cochrane 38:37

100% amen. And I will never forget when you texted me that song, Kristen, it was I during the same time you're talking about. That's I still lived in Minneapolis, and I was having a rough go of it. And you said this might help. This is what has been helping me, and you sent me a link to it, much like you. I had never heard of the song either, and it came to me when I needed it the most. And I feel like you said it right there. It's like we get these moments, especially if they're. I mean, I'm going to say it again. Just this message sent from another realm, and we get it when we need it. And that song is is so that, and I'm so grateful.

Speaker 3 39:19

Long dark night, and I've been waiting for the morning. It's been a long hard fight, but I see a brand new day dawning. I've been looking for the sunshine. You know I ain't seen it in summer. But everything's gonna work out just fine, and everything's gonna be all right. It's been all wrong, 'cause I can't see the light of a clear blue magnet. I can see the light of a brand new day. Everything's gonna be alright. Everything's gonna be alright. Everything's gonna be alright. It's gonna be.

Carolyn Cochrane 40:46

And I think so many of her songs, again, I keep overusing this word transcendent, but it doesn't matter when they were written, like what decade, what you know, year, whatever, what was going on. The message is timeless, and that's why it can come to us at different times, and it can mean different things at different times as well. That to me is what true art really is, and so I I love that. And I wanted to kind of transition from that to some other songs that I didn't know that Dolly had done, that the social media has shown me, and they're so fun. And I want to let you all know that this is a reason we need to bring the variety show back and the variety special because you get duets that would never happen in the real world. This is not going to be a song on the radio necessarily that people do, or this person isn't going to show up at concerts. But I'm just going to read you quickly just some of the duets that Dolly has performed on some of these shows, and I just think it's again, she's just crosses all these genres because we go from everybody from Kermit. We've probably seen that a lot with everyday people to that wonderful. This is actually the trio with Emmylou Harris and Linda Ronstadt with Bury me beneath the willow. I saw one this morning with Tom Jones, the green green grass of home. Do you remember that song? I could cry with that song when my mom would explain to me what that meant. Oh gosh. Okay, she did. She um did a duet with John Snyder. Dukes of Hazard came on the Mandrell Sisters variety show. We had we had one hey good looking what you got cooking with Pee Wee Herman on Pee Wee's Playhouse. We had Bob Hope Hard Candy Christmas. You guys, there was this really good one with Loretta Swift. If We Never Meet Again was so Dolly had a very short lived variety show, kind of on the tail end of the variety show genre, hoping that maybe they could revive that genre. Sadly, it didn't, but it gave us some great duets. She has some with Cher, The Temptations, Patti LaBelle, Barbara Mandrell, Willie Nelson, The Temptations. You guys, Joe Piscopo. They did. She and Joe Piscopo on Dolly's variety show. I'm on fire. They sang Bruce Briggs Stink song.

Michelle Newman 43:04

I don't think I want to hear that

Carolyn Cochrane 43:06

one. Who else could pull it off? I mean, it's just crazy. So long live the variety show because you know we could get Harry Styles singing maybe with Jason Sudeikis. Yes, I mean like why can't we have these moments again? Because it's not going to happen in real time. Bring back, bring back the variety show, everybody. I totally agree. And she was also

Kristin Nilsen 43:28

a master. This is something else that you would see on a variety show. She was also a master of taking a popular song and interpreting it and making it a Dolly Parton song. Sometimes when people sing somebody else's song and they do it differently, you're like just give me the way it was before. I don't really care for this. But when Dolly did it, her her ability to interpret a song, she would make it more country, more Dolly, and it was a new song. And honestly, in a lot of cases, it was a better song. So Carolyn shared one with us last night. Who does Shine? Help me. Who '90s song Shine? Who does that? R

Michelle Newman 44:06

said R.E.M. No,

Carolyn Cochrane 44:06

no. Oh shoot,

Michelle Newman 44:09

that's Shiny Happy People. Right. I don't know. Okay, somebody's gonna look it up right now.

Kristin Nilsen 44:13

It's it. I would call it a middling '90s song. It's a huge hit. It's one I find quite boring. That's why I can't tell you who did it because it's just a boring '90s song. But Dolly's collective soul. Collective soul. There we go. Sorry, collective soul. I'm no offense. I just don't care for it. It's really boring. But when Dolly does it, cue up that video. Again, another transcendent experience. And now I'm like, oh, this is a good song. Now I'm listening to the lyrics. Now the lyrics have meaning, especially in the aftermath of her death, because the words in the song. Now you'll remember it: Heaven shine, let your light shine down. Heaven let your light shine down. Heaven let your light shine down, and you're watching Dolly Parton sing this from heaven, and they just break your heart.

Carolyn Cochrane 45:00

On that note, and I know we probably need to wrap this up, and we could go on forever. I've got one more

Kristin Nilsen 45:07

conversation. Okay,

Carolyn Cochrane 45:08

okay, good, good, good. Yeah. Well, this one, because of what you just said, Kristen, was that I couldn't believe the amount of times that she played an angel in either TV movies of the week, you know, TV movies, some of her own creation, sitcoms designing women. She's in the fine, the finale of Frank Grace and Frankie. She plays an angel. The three

Michelle Newman 45:31

of them reunite again. It's there

Carolyn Cochrane 45:32

is a scene in, or there is a sketch kind of thing on the Cher variety show, and a finale of one of the those episodes, and she plays an angel singing to share. There are just so many moments that we all like. We buy it. Like she is an angel. She really is, and she knows what it's like on maybe this other side. And she's kind of bringing that message to us in different ways.

Kristin Nilsen 45:59

Okay, I have a question. I have a question for you. She's an unlikely angel. The picture that she is is an unlikely angel. We've got the boob jokes. We've got the wigs. We've got the too muchness of it all. She famously had a shit ton of plastic surgery, manipulating her face and her body. Not all of it good, but no one seems to talk about Dolly's procedures in the way we pick apart the procedures of other women. #Madonna, right? Why did the world not judge Dolly in the same way that we judge other women? Even even before the plastic surgery and whatnot, just just the boobs. Like, why is it that we were able to roll with that and still put her on a pedestal?

Michelle Newman 46:47

Because she she met it head on from the very beginning, way back in the like 70s, 80s. Yeah, she she'd bring it up, she'd talk about it, and she was unapologetic for it and funny as hell about it, like she was so funny. Some of the, you know, I love she's on like David Letterman's top 10, you know, and bad things that have said about Dolly Parton or something, and she she she reads them all. But you know, oh my God, she's saying things like, "How come no one ever talks about my ass? Or like, "Well, the reason my feet are so small is because they don't get any sunlight. They never got to go, or you know, she'd talk about her face. She'd poke fun at things. Well, I have so much. I've got so much going on, or I've got so much makeup on, or boy, you don't get this face by you know, blah blah blah,

Carolyn Cochrane 47:31

or how much money she had to spend to look cheap.

Kristin Nilsen 47:34

Yeah, that's right. Yes, yes, yes. So

Michelle Newman 47:36

from the beginning, I think Kristen, she has, she's owned up to it. She's admitted to it. She has had zero fucks about it. Like I take no shits, give no fucks, basically, right? Yeah. And I am not going to apologize for it. I'm going to own it, and I'm going to go out there, and I'm not going to try to hide it. And so you look at a Madonna or some people, and maybe they'll talk about it if pressed, but they just show up with these very wildly different faces or body parts, and expect us to all just accept it. When I think I'm not saying like no judgment, you want to do it, do it. I don't care, but don't act like you didn't. Don't act like you didn't. Yes, yeah,

Kristin Nilsen 48:21

that's right. And and I'm always worried about the reasons that people do it. And I think what Dolly would say is, "Do you know what industry I'm in? Take a look, people. Yeah. What do you think people aren't judging me? Whether no matter what I think about it, or whether or not it was successful, she was in an industry in which she was going to be out there with her looks, and that there was no denying that she wasn't doing it behind a curtain, so she may have felt an incredible marker to do it.

Carolyn Cochrane 48:46

So so brilliant as so so brilliant,

Kristin Nilsen 48:48

a business

Carolyn Cochrane 48:49

person even, and how this whole persona would, you know, propel her forward. She's because I feel

Michelle Newman 48:55

like too, if you go out there and own up to it, and you almost judge yourself like through jokes and through this self-deprecating humor. It leaves the person you're talking to, or all those or those of us who are watching the interview or something, without anything to judge or say because there were no weapons,

Kristin Nilsen 49:14

right? Got

Michelle Newman 49:15

nothing. So it's very brilliant because yes, there were times I'd see her, especially in the later years, she would she loved to do the bright pink eyeshadow in the middle and then the blue on each side. And you might have been like, "Oh wow, that's a look, Dolly Parton. But at the same time, in my, I was always thinking, "And you go, girl. You do you. You do what you want to do because I respected her so much for unapologetically being her authentic self, and her authentic self was very un was very yeah was very bought. But to her, that was her authentic self. That was I respected that. Right, she was.

Kristin Nilsen 49:55

You're right. It's the honesty and it's the humor. And I remember way this is another 90s. Thing and this may have been when my when my awareness of Dolly Parton as something bigger than nine to five, bigger than Jolene, bigger than here we come again. This might have been when it began, and she was on Regis and Kathie Lee, and they were asking her about her plastic surgery, and she very quickly said, "Yes, I've had my boobs lifted up so many times. Can you imagine? She's like, "Imagine if I didn't get a boob lift. I'd be sweeping the floor with my boobs. And I was like, "Well, that's true. And I would have been previously judging her if she hadn't said that in such a plain fashion. Well, of course, they'd be hanging on the floor if she didn't lift them up, oh, and then

Michelle Newman 50:42

she had the best one-liners about all of that, didn't she? She's so quick,

Kristin Nilsen 50:46

and then I think it also comes down to a story that I think a lot of us know, and this endears her to us, and it does help us know. You know, we always have the, we're always judging about. Well, why do people get get? I was going to say social media. Why do people get plastic surgery? And are those are those reasons pure, or are they societal, or is it patriarchal, or what? Like all the things that we judge about. And she has her famous stories that when she was a child, there was a woman in their town who was basically the town tramp, and she had her hair teased up, and she had red lipstick and red nails, and she was like, I thought she was the most beautiful woman I'd ever seen in my whole life, and you're just like, you could feel little Dolly, yeah, and you can't fault that little girl for looking at those beautiful red nails and thinking they're beautiful. And so, if that's who she models herself after, it's such pure intent,

Carolyn Cochrane 51:37

right?

Kristin Nilsen 51:37

It's such. It's not trashy. It's not slutty. She's not trying to get the attention of men. She's not trying to sleep with people. She's just a little girl thinking those red nails are beautiful. End of story. Before we go, I want to tell you about two other sources of media that are going to be required reading and required listening for everybody. These will mean so much more to you now than they did even a week ago, they were pivotal for me even when I read them before she died. But now I will be rereading and re-listening. The first one is a book called "She Come By It Natural" by Sarah Smarsh. It's S-M-A-R-S-H. It's a tiny little book. It's a quick read. It is a must-read because it is less a biography, it does talk about Dolly's life, but it really talks about her life and her songs, and how those songs kind of embodied feminism for working class women, especially poor working class women. Like "Hello Nine to Five, she was look at the statements she was making without even trying. Right, Nine to Five is about working class women, and she was promoting feminism for people who hate the word feminism. So this book is really almost biographical for the author who came from a small rural area in Kansas, and she's talking about what Dolly Parton meant to her mother and to her grandmother and to all of the poor women around her who were just trying to put food on the table, and also Dolly Parton famously hated the word feminism and would not call her a feminist. But when you look at her songs, oh my gosh!

Michelle Newman 53:10

Right, right. Well, and also just I feel like so many of her songs, especially some that I had never heard before the past few days, they're so empowering,

Kristin Nilsen 53:20

so so empowering.

Michelle Newman 53:21

They are anthems. Yeah, I mean anthem after anthem after anthem. Yeah, and she doesn't need the

Carolyn Cochrane 53:26

label. I guess is what. No, no, right. And she walks the talk. She does the thing, so she doesn't need to say, "Look at me, I'm a feminist. It's like I'm walking. I'm my true self, and I.

Kristin Nilsen 53:38

This is what I do. I'm just going to do the thing, and I don't understand that I am one thing or the other. That's irrelevant. Don't be a dick. That's what it all comes down to. The second thing that I need you to listen to is a podcast that came out a long time ago, actually called Dolly Parton's America. And if you listen to it already, listen to it again. It will mean even more to you now. Michelle ran into a paywall when she tried to listen this.

Michelle Newman 54:04

Sometimes things get there's little glitches, right? And there's no paywall for me,

Kristin Nilsen 54:08

so just give it a try. Give it a try, please. And Dolly Parton's America. This Dolly Parton's America is this is Carolyn's dream come true. It is full of rabbit holes. Have you already listened to this, Carolyn? No, I haven't yet. Oh my God, you're gonna die because it is all rabbit holes. It's less, again, less about Dolly's life and more about how Dolly created us, or reflected us, or affected us, and why. There's a whole thing about murder ballads, which is this heinous. This is one of the rabbit holes. Murder balls is one is one of the rabbit holes. It's this heinous tradition from Appalachia that detailed in song how men murdered their you know nagging wives or the girlfriends they inconveniently knocked up, and how Dolly was the first person to take the murder ballad and sing it from the perspective of the woman.

Carolyn Cochrane 54:59

Wow.

Kristin Nilsen 54:59

It's profound. This stuff is so profound. It goes a lot into her early catalog. You know, she's got one song about the pregnant girl whose boyfriend ran away and won't come back, and she's standing on the bridge ready to jump. It's like the invert of the murder ballad. They talk about her ability to stay out of politics, but also be obviously political. We talked about the the Dixie Stampede, she made she made statements about Black Lives Matter by saying something as simple as I think the quote was something like, "What we think our little old white lives are the only ones that matter. I mean, it's just a truism. She's not making a political statement at all. She's just being like, "Duh, people. So it's a it's a really good listen. It's nine episodes. It goes deep on so so many things, and the people who do the podcast do it with such love and respect because the person who's doing it grew up in East Tennessee, where Dolly Parton was in the water, basically. And it's the production of it is a it's a beautiful listen. It's such a good listen. You'll get so much out of it, and Carolyn, you'll love it. You'll love it. Oh,

Carolyn Cochrane 56:01

good. Okay, I'm queuing it up.

Kristin Nilsen 56:03

So, before we go, I just want to point out. Here's something else that I got from social media, and I think it's a really important important point because we're all having a lot of feelings right now, and the question is, why do we feel like this? Why are our feelings so strong? And somebody very poignantly said, this is what happens when you start losing the things that made you.

Michelle Newman 56:27

Oh, yikes! Wow, that hit

Kristin Nilsen 56:30

right. And I think that along the way, everything that we've been talking about here, and everything that's coming out in social media, and all these questions we have about why we liked this woman who dressed herself up like a tramp. It's the benevolence. She is all benevolence, no matter what she looked like and whether or not you liked it. No matter what she sang and whether or not you liked it, all of that was beside the point because she wanted nothing but goodness for the world. No matter how you try, you can't say anything bad about Dolly Parton because she was just too unapologetically real and wanting the best for everyone, everyone, everyone. End of story. She was better than all of us, and we didn't deserve her. Thank you for listening today, and we will see you next time. Will always love will

Speaker 3 57:36

always love you. The

Kristin Nilsen 57:48

information, opinions, and comments expressed on the Pop Culture Preservation Society podcast belong solely to Carolyn, the crushologist, and Hello Newman, and are in no way representative of our employers or affiliates. And though we truly believe we are always right, there is always a first time. The PCPS is written, produced, and recorded in Minneapolis, Minnesota, home of the fictional WJM Studios and our beloved Mary Richards. Nanu nanu, keep on truckin' and may the force be with you.