Kristin Nilsen 0:00
Our guests today need literally no introduction because they are amongst the most known people in history. We knew their characters as well as, or better than, we knew our own siblings. These people were as familiar to you as your own family. Thanks to after-school reruns for generations, Greg and Peter Brady have more name recognition than most world leaders, including our own. And today, the actors who portrayed those characters are in the PCPS studio for a bucket list interview. Barry Williams and Christopher Knight, welcome to the Pop Culture Preservation Society.
Speaker 1 0:37
Thank you, Kristen. It's great to be here. Thank you so much.
Kristin Nilsen 0:40
I I think that we've seen enough of you recently, especially in recent years. It seems like you both really embrace kind of your collective role in our culture, and I know that could have been hard at certain times in your life when you don't always want to be known for the thing that you did when you were 14, right? You both grew up and you did important things, but there comes a point too when you have to acknowledge your impact, right? And you you may not have cured cancer or anything, but you are a part of this nation's history. You are historic figures, and I have I have proof. We are very researched here. We are very research heavy at the Pop Color Pop Culture Preservation Society, and I want to show you. They're like me,
Speaker 2 1:21
Barry. Yeah, yeah, we do. We do diligence, y'all.
Michelle Newman 1:26
We we take it very seriously. Yes,
Speaker 3 1:28
yes, we
Kristin Nilsen 1:29
do. And so I wanted to share with you one of my primary resources, which is the Brady Bunch on the cover of Dynamite magazine in August of 1980. And in this, I mean, this is 1980. This is after the show's been gone for six years, and in this issue, they proclaim that the Brady Bunch is the top TV rerun of all time, and I I think that just kept going for like how prescient of them to say that in 1980. So I don't,
Speaker 2 1:58
you know, I don't think that was right in 1980, but I think it became right over time. It
Michelle Newman 2:04
became right. It absolutely did. The
Speaker 1 2:06
most popular rerun series of all time. We'll just go with that.
Kristin Nilsen 2:11
Yeah, yeah, 100.
Michelle Newman 2:13
Well, and that's how that's how I watched it. I mean, I was born the year that the Brady Bunch came out, so I didn't start watching it. I was probably five or six, but you know I don't know life without the Brady's. I don't know. I don't remember life without the Brady Bunch.
Speaker 1 2:28
We went into reruns before we finished filming. Wow! We were already being shown every day on the subsidiary networks. You know the local programming, even though those were still nationwide. So by the time, as you said, that you were born, that the show was running every day, and that has been the case nonstop for 50 for 45 years. So that's why it's never gone away. Or in the words of Lloyd Schwartz, who is Sherwood Schwartz's son and also a producer on our original series and others, the Brady Bunch is a lot of things. Dead is not one of them. Now,
Speaker 2 3:10
or over, over is not one.
Speaker 4 3:18
Yeah.
Speaker 1 3:18
What's and so what has happened? And I see this because I'm a performer as well. I'm a singer and do variety shows and host things and the like. So I have audiences, and I see multiple generations. And when I make references to, oh, Tiger the dog, or Marsha, Marsha, Marsha, or Oh My Nose, My Nose, or as Chris likes to say what's for dinner, Alice?
Speaker 2 3:47
What jobs and albums are
Speaker 1 3:49
everyone gets
Carolyn Cochrane 3:50
it? Yes, that's what we talk about on our podcast. It's just it's so special that it doesn't matter where you live or where you know any of that stuff. How much money you make? Yes, we all get it. In
Speaker 1 4:01
a sense, it's really become woven into the fabric of Americana, and for us, for Chris and I, kind of culminated with the real Brady Bros, our podcast, where we went through every episode, and that was quite a journey. It was almost three years to get all 117 episodes, and we learned a lot about each other, about about our show and the arcs and the various seasons and what they were like. And it was a real deep dive into what our fans watched, and it brought us closer to our fans.
Speaker 2 4:37
So there's there is a similarity, although I don't believe we appreciated it, that we all shared in this all came to light when we did the HGTV Barry Brady renovation. That none of us really knew where that house was.
Kristin Nilsen 4:56
I lived like
Speaker 2 4:58
less than half a mile. Until the '90s, at some point.
Speaker 5 5:02
Oh my God!
Speaker 2 5:03
I mean, and I thought maybe I was just not interested in knowing, and maybe the only one in doing that show. I found out everybody, nobody asked where that house was. We were actually led to believe while doing the show that that that the Bradys didn't live in California. Obviously, not looking at it with adult eyes, it's very clear it's California. But they didn't want us to peg it to be California. They'll, you know, they
Michelle Newman 5:29
yeah, you never hear out of the
Speaker 2 5:30
way to Greek out the California on the plate. Yeah, but you know, when you have that kind of,
Kristin Nilsen 5:35
but they're true. They never mention anything geographical. They don't. No.
Speaker 2 5:39
But that interest that we had, or that disinterest that we had through the '90s, we'd all find out where this house was by that point in differing differing ways. But what was interesting is we none of us endeavored to identify where it was at. We were just off after the show, on our you know we never worked there during the show, so another reason why we never knew where we had no connection to it. Yeah, and but our audience did. It had become already on the star tours a very popular drive-by, and we would learn this doing the HGTV project. And it became the most photographed home in America after the White House, right?
Kristin Nilsen 6:23
Yeah.
Speaker 2 6:23
So it's interesting. It became clear in doing the renovation that the house had become Brady Ground Central. It's like where we we where we were rooted and lived. If I may
Speaker 1 6:34
circle around just a little bit, we we consider the house another character. You know, so do we. Yeah. And then the 10th character would be the house, and it's every bit as important as any cast member.
Michelle Newman 6:48
Two years ago, we got to go to the house for a little private event right when she was opening it. I can only imagine how like how you guys must have felt the first time, but we felt like we were coming home when we walked in that door. We truly did. It was like, oh yeah, we know, we know this place. Like, it's so incredible. And because it is the 10th, like you say, the 10th character on the show, it is as familiar to us as our own childhood homes were. Truly, yeah. What was that like for you guys?
Speaker 1 7:23
Alice's meatloaf.
Kristin Nilsen 7:25
Yeah.
Speaker 2 7:26
I mean, so it's that plus like that on steroids because it was actually a physical place for us that didn't exist. But it's such a faithful reproduction of what we existed in that you've taken something that didn't exist, that was fantasy, and made it real. It's a total inversion, and it completely works. I mean, Barry and I, you know, countless times we've been there. You forget. I mean, at least for me, forget that you're not at Paramount on the set. I bet you do. So this is bringing to life the character in a more complete way. Yeah. What
Michelle Newman 8:04
about your bedroom when you walked into that bedroom the first time?
Speaker 1 8:07
I went and jumped in bed.
Michelle Newman 8:11
I think I might have too. But that just must have been
Kristin Nilsen 8:14
so trippy for you. I mean, if it's trippy for us, it must be like you said, Chris. It's like doubly trippy for you on steroids. That the net result
Speaker 2 8:22
of having done that show, though, and this experience with the home that had become ground zero for Brady's for our fans was our recognition that maybe we were out of step with our fans, because to the degree that when asked what is your favorite episode, and we all answer it the same way, and have for years. But I suspected that we answered it the way we did because of the experience, and it be Hawaii. Because that's what Eve said. That's what you said. So maybe that's not what they're asking. Maybe they're asking which, when watching the episodes, which is the one that makes you laugh the most, which is the one that connects with you the most, which is your favorite episode? Which standard question? And we had no idea what because we hadn't watched the episodes not in 50 years. So that was the impetus behind the Real Brady Brits was to do a podcast whereby we watch the episodes, review them, get in touch with them, and by so doing, we get in touch with our audience because they have been watching this these episodes repeatedly. Yeah, we know more about
Michelle Newman 9:28
them than you do. Well, that's
Speaker 2 9:29
absolutely yes.
Carolyn Cochrane 9:31
Well, and I would think you would be getting in touch with yourself as well, like that younger you when you go back and rewatch these. Because I mean, I know for us, even when we go back and watch whether it's the Brady Bunch or Happy Days or whatever. It's this special moment of kind of traveling back in time and being adult us and young us at the exact same moment. And I would think, like as an adult, maybe your favorite episode now might not be what you would have said when you were 35 or.
Speaker 2 10:01
Well, interestingly, our favorite episodes are still going to be Hawaii because we had we had the experience of being there. But when watching it, yeah, that's a whole new experience. Right. And Barry and I came to the conclusion, and this wouldn't have not been the way I predicted from my recollection. The better episodes were the first two seasons because they were more true to the actual design of the show and where we fit best, our ages fit best with the parable, with with the story, with the lesson. And though the shows for me at 15 were more fun to do, that was a reflection of just me feeling more confident in the job and who I was becoming, as opposed to the actual show itself.
Speaker 1 10:47
That's very interesting. While we're at it, my favorite episode is the first episode we did, the honeymoon when Mom and Dad got it. Yeah, and this this I
Speaker 5 11:00
realized that too.
Speaker 6 11:01
We're doing
Speaker 1 11:01
the real Brady Bros, and the reason is I looked at it is because it was authentic. It was authentic not in the circumstances, the situations, but we truly were getting to know each other. We had never met each other before we started working. None of us. I mean, Robert Reed didn't know Florence Henderson, didn't know Amy Davis. None of us kids had met each other. We all came together to make the show. So, and that was what the show was about: learning about each other, learning how to get along, learning you know how to work things out. And we were doing that, except behind the scenes as well. And at school, you know, we had studio school to go to, and we're in a little classroom, and and the so the episode really reflected the absence of any self consciousness, the absence of you know that kind of I'm gonna I'm gonna show show off kind of deal. It was just it was just full engagement in what was going on and paying attention, and all. And then we also see the style of what the show is, the dialog, the kinds of inflated, exaggerated situations and circumstances that we're going to get into, like the cake, you know, coming off the table at the wedding, and Dad balancing it just barely, barely, which had to be done in one take, by the way, was and was. But we saw the kind of humor, we saw the relationship, we saw who these people were, and much to Sherbert Schwartz's credit, you could learn who everybody was immediately because even though there are nine characters or 10 if we include the house, it's still three boys, three girls, and the boys, the boys and girls, you know, the couples are are kind of the same age, and they're right across the screen from you. So it's it's like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and you know, you know, you're in. You know who everybody is, so that from the get go there was that kind of familiarity.
Michelle Newman 13:03
I love it. We just dropped last week the episode where we recapped, not recapped as much as we do a little recap, but just talking about a tribute too. I would say yes, a that's great. I would say hands down the fan favorite, which is Amateur Night, or as we like to just in my mind, I've always just called it the silver platters. Silver
Kristin Nilsen 13:24
platters,
Michelle Newman 13:24
and I kind of want to know that. I want to know, ask each of you why do you think that amateur night episode resonated with us as kids, and why did it stick with us for over 50 years? We can sing the songs, we can do the dances. So why do you think? Yeah, for the for the viewers, why was that? Why has that become like their go-to episode?
Speaker 1 13:48
I think you just said it. You sing the songs, and you memorize that we added music, and that came at a time both societally and in show business. You know, in the Osmonds, the Jackson Five, Partridge Family, the monkeys. There were a lot of television families that that were celebrating music, and we were introducing it to the Brady Bunch at that time. Plus that Sunshine Day, which was, which is a killer song. I mean, it was it really is. It's a wonderful song, and it has become by far the most popular song other than the theme song in our show, and it's it's relatable us you know us dressing up and putting together the you know the the whole amateur thing and the reason we're doing it for mom and dad. I mean it's just Quintus Brady and so and the costumes and you know and all that that kind of fun and and it's cute to see you know the little Susan doing Sydney Brady doing you know, we
Michelle Newman 14:45
like we like Mike we like Bobby in Sunshine Day. Can you hear the Sunshine Day? You get the little groove. Yeah, I think last week I called him Tom Jones. He was like doing it. He was like getting so into
Speaker 1 14:59
it. I may share something with you about where I live now. I live not in Los Angeles or New York, and I'm not touring, but I live in Branson, Missouri.
Kristin Nilsen 15:10
Oh,
Speaker 1 15:10
and I came to Branson because it's a big entertainment community. It's a resort destination, and I came here to do that a musical variety show, and which I did in Branson called the music a 70s music celebration, and Brady was was a big part of it because that's a part of of what my music. So I would have audiences and you know hundreds of people and and in my audience and I would say you know the difference between the Brady Bunch and the Rogers family. The Bradys had choreography. They did. They did. I would literally ask my audience members if they would like to stand and learn how to do Brady choreography, and as a reward, I would make them honorary Brady's for life.
Kristin Nilsen 16:00
Come on!
Speaker 1 16:01
I would have people standing up in my audience that had to be assisted, that had cane, that couldn't walk, and I and then I say, okay, I'm going to teach you, and then I would do like, okay, here's you know step step number one, you know, use your Brady personality,
Michelle Newman 16:17
get your mic with a 55 foot cord,
Speaker 1 16:20
exactly, yeah, step number two, and this, and they would do it, and I do this little bite, and it was one of the most popular pieces of my of my show. So,
Kristin Nilsen 16:31
I think I want to talk about that choreography more because, as I told Carolyn and Michelle in our last episode, like I'll never get tired of it. I will never ever ever get tired of it. It's the it is you're right. It's the music and the choreography that elevate this show and bring it outside the parameters of a regular Brady Bunch episode. And I we talked about how simple it was, how homegrown the choreography was. It's both like a little bit cheesy, but utterly realistic to what six kids would make up in the carport of the garage, which is, I think, where the charm comes from. I think we gave we
Speaker 2 17:07
gave K-pop. It's I, you know, the idea. Chris, tell
Speaker 1 17:11
us tell us how how that came about. Yes, please. Why we did the steps that we did and that they were kind of simplified.
Speaker 2 17:18
Well, you might have to check me on this because I'm I'm struggling to remember completely, but I do remember that we had already cleverly decided that we should be actually a band, and we went on concert tour.
Speaker 1 17:33
Brady Kids and Costco, right?
Speaker 2 17:34
Right. Sometime the summer before this season, so we had done choreography to a number of songs, including this one, and I believe, if I'm not mistaken, they well we used the same costumes that our mothers made, and those blue and white costumes are you know from the the Brady Kids concert act, and I believe Joe Cider was our was on set Helping us, the director with the not no
Speaker 1 18:03
no no not on the television. That's a whole other story. We'll get to in a second.
Speaker 2 18:08
But so so who was there to guide us through the the the choreography?
Kristin Nilsen 18:13
Yeah, who created that choreography? Okay,
Speaker 1 18:15
it's a great question. You've heard of the movie West Side Story, that was choreographed by Jaime Rogers, that was our choreographer, and he came in. Now the joke I tell is that we choreographed to our lowest common denominator in dance movements. We ran on names. I'm not naming any names. Not everybody was not everybody was comfortable, you know, with with you know, with dancing, so he did things that you know were easily easily adjustable, and so that's that's kind of how that was born.
Kristin Nilsen 18:50
And did the kids contribute anything to it? Did did you kids say like, I think we should go like this. Let's go to the left. I mean, or was it? Did they just bring it to you completely done? It doesn't look that
Speaker 2 18:59
much different than what we did in concert, so I mean that wasn't hind me Rogers. So he just said, "What did you?" I think he gave up on trying to give us new choreography and just kind of polished the old choreography that we had already learned. And this
Speaker 1 19:11
is what made a real, real Brady Bros because we have different memories. It was a long time ago, but I tolerate it.
Michelle Newman 19:22
Spoken just like an older brother, Barry. I was going to say just like my sister and I get an my older sister and I will get an argument over childhood memories, and we're we both come to it with totally different stories. And Barry, she will do the same thing that you just did. She'll go fine, fine. Okay, fine. You're right. Feel
Speaker 1 19:41
about aging, getting older. I I love it because I can now remember so many things that never happened.
Speaker 5 19:47
Wait, and I want to say in defense of Chris Christopher,
Michelle Newman 19:54
when you said you they taught you to the lowest common denominator, and yes, we've read. I will say probably I'm being
Speaker 2 20:01
very quiet here. Well, the Lloyd Schwartz
Michelle Newman 20:03
book is behind me. The Brady, the Brady, Brady. Is it what's it called, Carolyn? You always remember. It's like Brady, Brady, Brady. Do you guys know the book I'm talking about? Yes. It's like the only piece calls it like from from his point of view. Yes, this is a great book, and he he might mention that Christopher Knight had a little bit of a difficulty with the choreography. Probably, I've always said, where like I would have never known. And we just watched that episode again. You would never ever know. You are keeping the beat with everybody. And I always say, poor Christopher Knight probably came to this going, wait, guys, I just I just thought I was hired to play Peter Brady. I didn't think I was hired to have to sing and dance. I mean,
Speaker 2 20:46
right? So this whole concert act thing that we had just previously done was my idea. Michael grew up with, as you could tell, was little Tom Jones, with a lot of music. I played, you know, piano, sang Maureen sang, Eve's came from her father was in the music business. I would say that me, Barry, and Susan had the least experience with singing. It hit Barry and I differently. You know that became something that Barry wanted to pursue, and it was of no interest to me. But the reality was, is it was one my mom's idea. From she was sort of had a business mind, and her rationale was the Jacksons, the Osmonds, the DeFrancos. Yeah, you know, yes, Tony DeFranco. We should we could make money if the kids created an act. I'm thinking, Mom. There was never any music in our lives. There was, you know, go out and survive is sort of what we did after school. Not, not music. There was no music. That was. We didn't really even have a hi-fi system that that would work. So I, I was virtually, I was unskilled, unpracticed, and uninterested, disinterested in in this pursuit, and didn't think I did it well, and was horrified at having to do it. That didn't make it easier by being horrified at doing it, and and and resented Barry because he was always pushing the idea of more music in the show, and actually, we at I at one point we had sort of a meeting with Sherwood about wanting to put more music in the show, and here I am, one of the little Brady kid soldiers, saying that because that was the that was the union we were a little union, and that was I had to be part of that, and it was like that's not what I wanted.
Michelle Newman 22:44
And then they're like, "And next, guys, you're gonna do a variety show." Yeah, right. So,
Speaker 2 22:49
so you know, that's this is God teasing me. You know, never gonna let you do anything unless there's music. Get used
Michelle Newman 22:56
to it. So good. Well, and
Kristin Nilsen 22:57
Barry, I can't help but connect. I think there's a straight line from the Silver Platters episode to your incredible run on Dancing with the Stars. You were you were a fan favorite. Thank you, loved it. And I just I how much of the Brady Bunch did you bring with you out on the stage on Dancing with the Stars?
Speaker 1 23:16
I will tell you that at Dancing with the Stars, I brought out 100% of everything, everything I had. I have never been so tested. How much of it did you leave there? Well, well, I'm not going to lie. There was a year of recovery after after that three months.
Speaker 2 23:35
Florence said the same thing. Her feet were never the same. It was really hard on my knees, etc.
Speaker 1 23:39
Not to get into that part of it so much, but I just loved it. It was a great experience. It was so challenging and so much fun. Christopher came to watch me be eliminated.
Michelle Newman 23:52
Oh, did he have the tiki
Carolyn Cochrane 23:54
with him? Maybe. Oh wait, was the tiki? Yeah, I think they invited me
Speaker 2 24:01
earlier, and I came down with COVID or something. Couldn't make it one of the weeks, and then they were really adamant about me coming, which leads me to believe they kind of knew what was going on. You know, they're producing a show, so I was able to make the week. I'm glad I was able to finally make it when I did, because that was and it was that was the
Michelle Newman 24:19
end. Okay, you just said you brought everything. You brought that's what we could tell. No, but we that's why we and that's why I think everybody just all of a sudden, if they weren't Team Barry when it started, we were Team Barry because also you were good. Yeah, you were really good. Thank
Speaker 1 24:36
you. Well, and I've had a life in music, which started, as Chris pointed out, kind of with the Brady Bunch, you know, going to New York immediately afterwards, and then and creating a new career in musical theater, and joining the Broadway National of Pippin, and then on Broadway with Pippin, we had the variety show, and then there were, you know, we had made records, and so there was a lot of it. And I can tell you though, there's no way that you can actually. Practice for ballroom. It is a completely different. It is like what pop music dancing is to ballet is what is what ballroom is to pop, and so it it helps to have a really really great partner, and I did Peter Pita Murgatroyd, and that's what really carried it. And whatever it was going to be, I just knew that I would leave it all, all, all on the dance. I love
Michelle Newman 25:28
that you had the best attitude. You had such a good attitude. Yeah,
Speaker 1 25:31
very, very. And
Kristin Nilsen 25:32
another thing, similarly, that we talked about on our last episode was when you just came out on the stage with Smashing Pumpkins and sang Sunshine Day, and just like thrilled the world.
Carolyn Cochrane 25:43
So many of our listeners sent us that video, which really went viral, and they were showing everyone in the audience. Just it just was such a special collective moment that I feel like we were all on the same page and experiencing joy when you came out on that space. I think that
Speaker 1 25:58
was the genius of Billy Corrigan, he he's a very special guy, and has a podcast which we did in the Brady House. And then he invited me to come on during one of his concerts to sing Sunshine Day. And I said, "Well, how does that look?" He says, "Well, I think I see it in all black." And as soon as he said that, I went, got it. I I'm in. I love it. And so he was doing a concert at the Riviera in Chicago, leading to Lollapalooza. And I said, Billy, I don't want you to introduce me. I said, just just do the just vamp on on the intro, and I'll just I'll just walk out. And you should have seen the react. The people were going. Yeah, you can see it. Some of the clips, yeah, like a non sequitur, you know, out of nowhere. And then we started started doing into the song. He just stepped up, you know, saying, "Hey, Billy, I think I'll go for a
Speaker 7 27:01
walk,
Speaker 1 27:02
and I see Flavor Flav up in the balcony.
Speaker 5 27:04
Yes, such
Speaker 1 27:07
a cool moment. Really fun.
Michelle Newman 27:10
Yes, you almost can tell when everybody realizes not just what the song is, but who's singing it.
Speaker 2 27:18
And
Michelle Newman 27:18
I mean, all the zones just go up. Yeah, it's like what is happening in my world right now.
Kristin Nilsen 27:24
It's such a. It was so smart on Billy Corrigan's part because of course everybody in that audience they're us, right? We are the Brady Bunch generation, and that was the first time that the three of us were like, "Hey, Billy Corrigan is one of us. Yeah, he's also a Brady Bunch fan. Of course he
Speaker 1 27:39
is." Well, yeah, and I too am a big fan. I'd like to circle back to the house for a second because this this that's where I met you know really kind of bonded with him you know on his podcast and talking because I didn't think he would know anything about the Brady Bunch and he's like an expert on it, and it just it it really was a you know a shift of crossover and and he had a troubled childhood, and so the Brady model was impactful in a positive way for him, and so he gravitated to it. And so, the house now owned by Tina Trahan, as you know, and she's a wonderful, wonderful custodian. Yeah, Chris Knight, you and I, he and I were instrumental and helpful in in creating it as a national historical monument now. So now we've been nominated, but yeah, stay that way. And Kristen and I talked earlier last year or earlier this year, and I said, friend of mine is he's they're going to run on the CW a very Brady Christmas, which was a very very popular movie of the day. Oh yeah, yeah. In the 80s, and and I said, and I we talked about. I said, what do you think about going to the house, inviting our audience, like the camera, in? We'll watch it together on a 25 inch diagonal television and put rabbit ears on it inside the Brady Bunch house, and then we'll comment on what we saw, and what we're going to see, and what we think about it. What? Why? Why is Mike going into that construction site? Doesn't he know it's dangerous? What's he thinking about here? You know stuff like that. And we had we we had a great time working on it and and doing so. I'm excited. I have not yet seen it put together, but we spent a good long. We had a good time. Brilliant. And Chris says I'm in. So that's what we did. We just finished it about two two and a half months ago, and it's going to air. It's coming up, and this is actually an announcement. Oh, good. CW. And my understanding, these things change, but I've been told that it is will be on Sunday night, december 6. december 6. Okay. Oh, writing that down. Yes, we will put that in our
Carolyn Cochrane 29:50
show notes. Yeah.
Michelle Newman 29:51
I love this. We're gonna be able to say Barry's dropping exclusive an exclusive announcement.
Speaker 1 29:57
There you go.
Michelle Newman 29:58
That we can tease it. And
Speaker 1 29:59
this was. For Chris, for Chris and me, because we would, while we were doing it, we would actually watch footage from a very pretty Christmas, and then they'd sit us down and and you know put a camera on.
Kristin Nilsen 30:13
This is hysterical! I cannot wait. We're gonna promote the hell out. Oh yeah! So december
Michelle Newman 30:19
6 on the CW is what the plan is, right? Very
Speaker 2 30:22
Brady Christmas. Okay, very Brady
Michelle Newman 30:24
Christmas, and a very
Speaker 2 30:25
different kind of very Brady special version. Yeah.
Kristin Nilsen 30:28
Oh, I'm so glad you saved that for us. I feel like this is a very exclusive interview. It's a
Speaker 1 30:33
very Brady Christmas with the real Brady Bros.
Michelle Newman 30:36
Love it. The
Carolyn Cochrane 30:36
other Christmas miracle. Let us not forget. We talked about this episode too. Is probably one of my favorites because we barely ever saw it, but was that OG Christmas episode where you know mom loses her voice, but she's supposed to sing at the Christmas service, and you know that is
Speaker 2 30:52
that would be the example of the first year's shows.
Kristin Nilsen 30:55
Yes,
Speaker 2 30:56
that when watching again was like, wow, these original shows really worked really well. They were they were much more thought through,
Speaker 1 31:07
and at least the original
Speaker 2 31:08
concept that that Sherwood had about the family coming together and all. And it's such a sweet episode. You're right. Matter of fact, Barry has an an interesting anecdote about that Christmas show.
Speaker 1 31:18
I do. It's the most significant episode of the entire series. In fact, without it, we would not have had a second, third, fourth, fifth season. The show was floundering. It came on, and you know, it had you know kind of a Midwest kind of appeal, but it really wasn't being washed. It wasn't hip. It was you know kind of a little bit square and that kind of thing, and it really just hadn't found an audience until was a song for Christmas, I think it is, called. Yeah. And it is where Mom Carol Brady lost her voice. Cindy went to say and didn't want any presents. He just wanted Mom to have her voice so that she could sing in church, and lo and behold, she wakes up, and I can't give away the end. I don't want to spoil it, but
Carolyn Cochrane 32:05
no, no spoilers on here. Was a
Speaker 1 32:08
miracle. Just say it.
Carolyn Cochrane 32:09
It's a Christmas miracle. And anyway, there was
Speaker 1 32:11
such there was there was kind of a sincerity and an authenticity. It came right through the screen. Well, it found its audience, and it was by far and away the highest rated episode that we had done to that point, and that was right when the network was deciding whether or not they were going to renew us for the end of the first season.
Speaker 2 32:33
So we didn't get our years were
Speaker 1 32:36
60. This is
Speaker 2 32:37
quite common, at least on certainly on the first season, there's a buy for the first half of the year, 13 episodes, and then at that time it was 1012 episodes on the backside, the spring episodes, the ones that would start in February. So that first 13 would get you through you know January, and if you were picked up and you had the second half of the season, then the shows would run right to the beginning of summer, and then you were you know recycled a few times in the summer, and then a new season would begin. There was only one season of ours where we were picked up for the entire year. So every year we would we would be doing shows, not knowing if we're coming back from our well, but that was a Christmas break, if you would, Thanksgiving break, and I can't even recall when it would be that we got the message. Did we know before we took our hiatus that we'd be coming back after the holiday, or not? I believe we did most of the times. No, but as we're doing the 12th episode or 11th episode, we didn't if we were going to come back for a 14th episode at all. I mean, the whole feeling around Christmas time is the Brady feeling. It is. It just doesn't require a holiday to to try to establish that feeling. And it you know, in watching the shows as we did through the podcast, it was a little disappointing that we didn't do more Christmas episodes because it would have really fit, and we can only surmise why. And that is that episodes that required of the family at the table take a long time. Oh, very difficult to get done in time. And when we we did the next Christmas episode, it would have to be a movie of the week where we had more time.
Carolyn Cochrane 34:22
Okay, and a much larger cast. Being
Speaker 1 34:25
a Peter Brady or Greg Brady is a little like being Santa Claus when we're meeting people for the first time. Know the show. It's it's like you know it's it's something special, and you can see it's the heart light gets turned on, and you know that's kind of what you're talking with. You know, middle-aged women become 1213 years old, and they dub them out right in front of you. And a very, it's very sweet. I mean, it's very, very nice, and I, I'm very protective of that. I think you know that's. You talk about continuing the brand or representing the brand. That's what I'm what I'm kind of representing because there's that that innocence and that purity and that that kind of innocence that
Carolyn Cochrane 35:13
right
Speaker 1 35:13
is is genuine.
Kristin Nilsen 35:15
Yeah. Yes. And we appreciate you for that. We appreciate you.
Michelle Newman 35:19
And I was going to ask you, you know because this show does cross so many generations and it's because when I watch an old Brady Bunch episode I think it's other than the clothes and the you know decor all this kind of stuff being dated the messages still work the show still works the humor I laugh out loud. Like when when we had to go back and watch old episodes on like Paramount Plus or something for you know our terrible hard research and homework for these podcast episodes, I am just delighted by them every bit as much today at age you know 57 than I was you know at age eight. And so I was going to ask you what you think the secret sauce was about that show. I feel like Barry, you just touched on it a lot. The innocence. Do you guys have any other ideas of what is it that still makes this resonate with all of us today?
Speaker 2 36:15
I think it's the purity. I think it it it's faithful to the the worldview, the hopeful worldview of a seven year old, and that never escapes us. We we we we we grow beyond it, but it's in there, and it's a comfortable place for for many, maybe it's not, but there's always a desire to make it more comfortable, and I think as we've known growing up that the show has, as we've been commented to by our audiences, that it's worked for families that were the the parallel of the Brady's, you know, a large Catholic family with 11 kids, you know, you know, we are
Kristin Nilsen 37:01
them, and then
Speaker 2 37:02
it works for a latchkey kid because we are now we are now surrogates. We are brothers and sisters to an only child who doesn't have any who wishes he did and through the Brady's. I've heard this time and time again. Yes, they they I don't know if they've adopted us or we've adopted them, but they they have a family in the Bradys, and it supplied them with that that feeling, that brotherly love, and that support, and the idea of having a family. So I just recently experienced something that, again, doing the review for the CW's airing of the Very Brady Christmas. I had not watched the Very Brady Christmas in a very long time, similar to when we did the episodes on the Brady Bros. And it dawned on me that a similar feeling occurred at watching at least the first Go Pass pass of Very Brady Christmas. That the same feeling was there initially watching Brady episodes again, and that was it was almost horrifying, to be honest. And this
Speaker 8 38:11
is
Speaker 2 38:11
not a feeling you guys can get because once you're in it, you know how to get back there. So every time you turn on the episode, you're right. You're you're in that flow, and actually anticipating it, wanting it, it's it's the escape back to seven that I think you're that we're tickling, because when I first watched, and I'll use the most recent example, the very Brady Christmas episode. It was like God, it was it was stark. It was like it wasn't funny. It was unreal. And but in having to take notes and really rewatching it, it was like at you know going through it a second and third time, all of that whatever that discomfort was melted away, and now I'm in its flow. Because I mean, as an adult, there are things that don't work. They're they're clearly not real, and you have to get to that point. Bigger
Speaker 1 39:15
than life, yeah.
Speaker 2 39:17
Yeah, no, it's a stylized thing. It's like we know it's it's amazing. If you sit down and watch a cartoon, you're immediately aware that it's not real because it's a cartoon. The Brady's it's it's a it's a little more tricky because you don't you're not immediate. It doesn't immediately signal to you that we're in a different we're sort of in a rarefied space, but once you give up on denying it, you and get into it. The purity of it resonates really well.
Kristin Nilsen 39:48
Yeah, and it's
Speaker 2 39:49
comforting. And then you laugh.
Michelle Newman 39:51
Comforting. You laugh at that innocence. And
Speaker 2 39:53
and I think that's also what was missed in the the the movies, because you know there really is no way to make a movie. The Bradys, like what's the middle beginning? What's the end? What's it about? It's just it's it's a slice of life. It's hard to make a movie out of that, and so when you're deciding to take it to the big screen, you you invent something that is like what they did, which is really a fish out of water story. It's like the Bradys are fundamentally flawed to the point where they they stumble upon solving things, you know. And that's not what the spirit of the show originally was, but it's what our view of ourselves as a child. It's a comment on our view because we're looking back at the things that we thought were were true about life, and now we can laugh at ourselves, and that's what the movies provide. I remember a woman coming up to me and telling me that that she had brought her seven-year-old to the movie, and she didn't. I mean, she didn't enjoy it or get it at all. Yeah, because it wasn't for kids. Right, it was for the adults that used to watch the show. They used to watch it. That's right. And and you know, a kid watching at the same time isn't watching the the original episodes. It's for a totally different purpose, and that's us making a comment on our old selves. The Bradys, when watching it, requires us to go back to our old selves, and then then it becomes you know a warm cuddle.
Kristin Nilsen 41:20
And and for us too, it's the exact same thing, and that's kind of why the Brady Bunch defies criticism, right? Like you because you can't you can't take a textbook version of how you judge a TV show and apply those to the Brady Bunch because we're watching it with our seven year old eyes, and what is important to us when we're seven is different when you're watching, you know, The Godfather or something like that, and there
Speaker 2 41:44
might be an important lesson there. You know, about us as adults understanding and giving more credit to our seven-year-old selves about wanting what it is. The Brady Bunch is is about respect going both ways. Parents showing it to children, children showing it to their parents. Not always, you know, there might have to be a lesson to get to that point. You don't always immediately do the right thing, but you get to the right the the right end result for the right reasons, and you're kind, and you're supportive, and that is family. And I don't believe there's many other places to look for that. And in real life, it's I know in my family that wasn't there. Yeah, it was really
Michelle Newman 42:23
safe. I love that you said comforting earlier because you know in my house there was a lot of yelling, right? But in the Brady house it wasn't. It felt safe for me as a child, and so I think that's why even today, I unapologetically will watch a Brady bunch because I might need it, you know. Still, my old my
Speaker 2 42:43
some might derive it as it's it's giving it's giving a flight to our ignorance, an ignorant self. But I say no, it's giving flight to the hope. Oh, for sure. This is the wrong word.
Kristin Nilsen 42:59
Yeah,
Speaker 1 43:00
I would give credit to the the legacy of the show, I would say Sherwood Schwartz. Sherwood Schwartz created the show, and he created the show to to demonstrate how people who come from different places, in our case, you know, different families, come together, and how do they get along? That was the that was that was the primary purpose of the how to how to get along and to do that, he used as as Chris pointed out parents that were willing to listen to their children that trusted them believe them and and watch them go go through the the various stages that his own kids went through, and it was his decision to not place it in a political place, you know, an era aside from you know hair and and clothing, you know, bell bottom aside, but it could be, and that's why we we never identified Los Angeles. It was just because he wanted it to be any town USA, and here we were going through the same kinds of changes in growth and maturation that every family would would experience, but it's he that made the choice to make it idealistic, and it wasn't. I mean, it really nobody has a a family just like the Brady Bunch, but we do have a model for what a functional family would look like if it becomes aspirational,
Speaker 2 44:23
right? That's the perfect word. It's
Kristin Nilsen 44:25
aspirational. We all should be so lucky. Yeah,
Speaker 2 44:27
right. And I think that there's a bit of that that's going on. I mean, there's a there's a solving of the family riddle by watching the Brady's, right? Because there's so little training in how a family should function, you know, or how do you watch a well-functioning family? Where do you go to see that? That's right.
Kristin Nilsen 44:47
But it was also within reach. So that's what I'm saying. So it becomes that becomes
Speaker 2 44:52
that lesson. It becomes that that ideal, that aspiration.
Kristin Nilsen 44:55
Yeah.
Speaker 2 44:56
And you know, I'm not sure everybody. Has learned how to get along yet, you know. So there's more of that necessary. And as Barry said, the Brady's was about you know disparate people coming together to learn to get along. Every one of Sherwood's shows was that. That's the Gilligan's Island. Gilligan's Island.
Speaker 1 45:14
It cuts through the cultural boundaries, racial boundaries, religious boundaries, sexual boundaries. It's it's it's just relatable, and it's about getting along.
Speaker 2 45:23
you're dedicated to getting along, it means listening to the the other. Yeah, first
Carolyn Cochrane 45:29
of all, which they
Kristin Nilsen 45:30
always did by the end of the episode. That's bad.
Speaker 1 45:32
Now, but how many times, Peter, have I told you don't put a ball in the house?
Carolyn Cochrane 45:36
And you know, I I don't want to belittle this or anything, but what's been so special about this podcast is we can you can go up to just about anybody and say don't play ball in the house of a certain age, and we are immediately bonded. You don't need to know like who you voted for or whatever. We have this commonality that it just to me makes me realize, you know, you guys, we have so much more in common, and this was such a great show for that. I mean, it just makes you feel good. And for you guys, I wonder, like, you think about it, Barack Obama watched the Brady Bunch. You know, I mean, Bruce Springsteen watched the Brady Bunch. It's just the every person show, and at a time of such sometimes discord, or we're all divided up. I think we can all say, "Don't play ball in the house," or "Marsha, Marsha, Marsha," and we're we're friends. We are one and the same in that moment. And I am so grateful for you all for providing that for a world.
Speaker 1 46:39
Carolyn, you you are totally druid.
Carolyn Cochrane 46:42
Okay, stop the mic. Barry says
Speaker 2 46:44
that to all the girls. I have a question. I got you three here. So, you started watching the show as it was a rerun, and as you'll remember, those reruns didn't run in any particular order. They weren't dedicated to a year at a time or you know any order whatsoever. You clearly gravitated to it, and I would imagine gravitated to a person that you latched onto. The question I have is, did that person change as you grew?
Michelle Newman 47:19
Yes.
Speaker 2 47:19
As the show was on originally. If you watched on Friday night, you grew along with the cast.
Michelle Newman 47:24
Yep, there wouldn't be
Speaker 2 47:25
any detaching to attach to somebody more age appropriate. But there would be that opportunity if you started watching it at five when it was in rerun. You know, I would see immediately you're going to attach to Cindy maybe. But then now you're watching it at you know 13, you're seven years into this thing, and Cindy is no longer where you're at, and maybe it's it's it's it's
Michelle Newman 47:49
Jan. Michelle could be Greg.
Speaker 1 47:52
Who are yours? Yeah. So
Michelle Newman 47:54
as a and I say this in our episode, we we all talked about this in our episode, the first episode we ever did on the Brady Bunch, which was a two-part episode, by the way. We had so much to say. I always, because I'm a little sister, so in anything I watched, be it Sound of Music, you know, the Brady Bunch, whatever, I'm going to gravitate toward the little sister. So yes, the episodes, I would say seasons one and two, I would always gravitate towards Cindy. Also, my God, is there a more adorable child than Susan Olson at that age with the little lisp and lip and the pony? Oh my God, she's adorable.
Speaker 2 48:29
Torturous pony. I
Michelle Newman 48:31
always say, I always say, once Cindy got braids, I was out of the Cindy thing because she grew well because you know she's growing up. But also, Chris, you just brought up a good thing. I was also getting older too, and then I was all about Jan. Jan just cracked me up. Will the real Jan Brady please stand up? Is one of my absolute most favorite, most hilarious. I will never, I will never not laugh until I ugly cry watching her try to stuff. Like she comes out and she's got all the blonde long anyway, but then it was Jan, and I will say that. But I also sort of had that that older girl, like Marsha, was so groovy. But yeah, it changed. You're right, it changed. I don't know, Carolyn, Kristen, did it change for you guys?
Kristin Nilsen 49:15
It's not necessarily what age you were. That seems that's a logical thing to assume, but sometimes it's where you were in the birth order. Sometimes, yeah, the little sister. And I was a Jan person, and part of it was because Jan had my hair, because she, because Marsha had the very straight, smooth hair, and I did not have that. I really wanted that, but truthfully, I had the frizzy hair like Jan, and also Jan's personality felt more like I was a little more serious, and and and she was always consternated about something, and I felt like I was often so mostly Mark. Yeah, seriously, and I couldn't have identified. I couldn't have articulated that at the time. You just gravitate towards somebody without really knowing why. It's only in retrospect that. Be like, oh, it's the consternation and the seriousness and the hair. So I'm Jan. Right.
Carolyn Cochrane 50:04
Well, what was interesting was when we had this same discussion on our episode. I could not believe that Michelle and Kristen were just so fond of Jan because I'm an older, I'm the oldest sister, and so I was Marsha all the way. Marsha was cool. Marsha got the good grades. Jan was just a whiner, and I after and when they were so defensive of Jan and made those faces when I said that, I thought I think this could be the end of our podcast. I'm not sure we can go on. This is great work. We were shook. We were shook. Yeah, we were. But I think again because of what you just said, Kristen, kind of the birth order, and I just Marsha to me was what every girl and eldest daughter should be the one that got the good grades, you know, the one that followed the rules. And if she didn't, you know, my little sister, the whiner in real life, would be you know tattling on me, and I would not like that. So, so yeah. So I thought it was very interesting that Kristen and Michelle, yeah, love Jan because Eve Plum is a delight. Let me just say that, and we had the opportunity to meet her and talk to her, and I told her all that. But she was a great actress. How about that? Yes, well, they they
Speaker 2 51:14
definitely plumbed her talent. Oh
Carolyn Cochrane 51:17
wow, that's a good one there. And I didn't
Speaker 2 51:19
mean that. No, just was saying that it just dawned on me what I just said, but yeah, because because she just had this incredible wealth of emotion that, as a child, she was able to give at a moment's notice.
Kristin Nilsen 51:33
Maybe that's why I was jammed because, like, she did have her emotions right there. Oh, you really picked up a
Speaker 1 51:38
lot too, Marcia, Marsha, Marsha. No,
Speaker 2 51:40
I mean what's interesting, pretty clear when you're writing for six kids, you have an idea. You've sketched this family, you got a young one, two young ones, two old ones. That's pretty easy.
Carolyn Cochrane 51:53
Yeah. The
Speaker 2 51:54
middle is undefined, and there's I guess two ways you can deal with the middle: enjoy it or hate it, and they actually wrote the hate episode for for for the Jan character. Did they write that as an episode where she didn't want to have brothers and sisters, which is sort of opposite of where the show was or was going because they saw her emotion and they would explore it through her, or was it gonna be not that until they recognize that emotion and they'll just go with it? I don't know because I know the Peter character. I think they started down that route and it didn't stick. Like not having a personality and like oh you know woes me as well. But the woes me wasn't the where I was prone to going because it was like freedom to be in the middle and be unknown is a great way to be. Means that if you're not expected to be the responsible one or the cute one, then you can be you know nobody's really looking out to define you. You could be whatever you want to be,
Speaker 1 52:57
like the and then it could
Speaker 2 52:58
change. Yeah, they're not even be troublemaker.
Kristin Nilsen 53:00
Yeah, and that's why there's somebody for everybody, whether or not you are five years old, like Cindy. You don't have to match things exactly. You're always going to find your. Yeah, there
Speaker 2 53:09
is a teat to succulent.
Speaker 5 53:10
Yeah. Oh, we need a shirt that's not exactly like that. But yeah, well, that's what I meant. That's a T-shirt for you, pretty bunch. There's there's a teat to suckle on. We're
Speaker 2 53:22
all part of this big litter.
Kristin Nilsen 53:24
I love your analysis. This is so. It's just elevating. It's elevating Brady Bunch, right? And that's another. Like I said before, it defies criticism because you can find those nuggets and you can elevate it like that.
Speaker 1 53:34
It's been fun for me too to be here with you and and doing what you're doing and and appreciate what you're doing for pop culture, it's great. I do want to make sure before we go anywhere, Michelle, Kristen, that you and you both are also totally groovy.
Speaker 9 53:50
Oh,
Speaker 1 53:51
and I want to make sure Michelle, Kristen, Carolyn, know that you are, with the power vested in me, from henceforward, always honorary Brady's.
Speaker 5 54:05
I'm Jan. I'm Jan.
Michelle Newman 54:07
I'll be Cindy. Fine. Okay.
Carolyn Cochrane 54:08
Good job. I'm Marsha. There we
Michelle Newman 54:10
go. Oh my gosh! Thank
Kristin Nilsen 54:11
you. Thank you for that. Gosh,
Michelle Newman 54:14
just a crazy honor for us. And like one of you, Carolyn or Kristen, I forgot who said earlier, to be able to just thank you for being who you are to us and who you were to us and how important you were to our childhoods, it just it's it's just a true honor. So thank you so much.
Kristin Nilsen 54:33
Yes, thank you for being
Speaker 6 54:34
here. Thank you.
Speaker 1 54:36
Thank you so much for having us.